Wheel sizing vs. power question

Volk Z · 03-29-2012, 11:34 AM

I remember my stock 17 inch 350Z wheels with tires weighed 54 pounds
Swapped to my 19 inch Volk TE37s with tires they weighed around 49 pounds

By going +2 in rim sizes but reducing the unsprung weight i actually noticed a positive change...

Its always funny to hear someone go +2 and add like 10 pounds per wheel and wonder why their car feels slower! haha

Aizen Sosuke · 03-29-2012, 02:09 PM

Tire Size Calculator - tire & wheel plus sizing

The above link should help some still debating.

Alfamale · 03-31-2012, 03:19 AM

simple useful Tire size calculator

VegasZ · 04-02-2012, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volk Z

I remember my stock 17 inch 350Z wheels with tires weighed 54 pounds
Swapped to my 19 inch Volk TE37s with tires they weighed around 49 pounds

By going +2 in rim sizes but reducing the unsprung weight i actually noticed a positive change...

Its always funny to hear someone go +2 and add like 10 pounds per wheel and wonder why their car feels slower! haha

A positive change how? By moving the some of the rotational mass outward 2" you should be losing power, not gaining it. From what I've read and experienced with my 350Z, a gaining power doesn't seem possible. I went from 18's to 19's and the setup was lighter than stock.....yet the car still felt like I had lost some power.

BGTV8 · 04-02-2012, 03:46 AM

Folks - you are confusing torque, total tractive effort availble and power.

The amount of torque produced by an engine at a given engine-speed will be constant (near enough).

Power is the amount of "actual work" that can be done and is actually torque multiplied by time (usally expressed in engine rpm).

Total tractive effort is the torque available at the road and is influenced by overall final drive ratio (including OD of the wheel/tyre assembly)

The weblink to dyno charts graphs the same "power" but it is achieved over slight differing time periods and IMHO misrepresents the true facts .. I beleive the graph is showing "tractive effort" on the vertical axis. It is the slower time to acheive the same output (tractive effort) that you can perceive as "less power".

What is not clear is the relative diameters of the wheel/tyre combination as this will cause the time for a given torque (available tractive effort at the tyre/dyno roller interface) to differ as it influences the gearing. Bear in mind that a gearbox and fnal drive ratio are effectively a torque multiplication device and will influence the time it takes for a given amount of torque to achieve a given rotational speed (and hence tractive effort measure).

The seat of your pants will tell you that a 20" wheel with 35 profile tyre will accelerate more slowly that a 19" wheel wth the same profile tyre and this wil accelerate more slowly than a 18" wheel fitted with a 35 profile tyre - this is due to the realtive overall gearing ratio diferences.

In fact, the same torque and engine rpm mean the same "power" figure at the flywheel, it is just that by changing the effctive gear ratio, you are altering the relative "total tractive effort" and this is what manifests as acceleration which you feel thru the seat.

Differing weights of wheel/tyre assemlbies will not affect the torque (and therefore power) generated by the engine at the flywheel, but it will affect the ability of the engine to generate "tractive effort" as a consequence of gearing changes.

To determine the differences in tractive effort due to rotational inertia alone (differing wheel assembly weights), you would need to repeat the tests with wheel/tyre combo having exactly the same rolling diameter.

That said, lightweight wheels will reduce unspung weight which will improve mechanical grip as the damper has less weight to control and this makes the suspension more predictable in its behaviour - they will contribute to lower overall vehicle weight which improves the ability of a given amount of torque to accelerate the vehicle, as well as a reduction in torque losses attributed to accelerating the wheel and tyre itself.

The discussion thread is about "power" but I really think the peception is about "time to accelerate the vehcile" and these are not the same thing.

RB

Volk Z · 04-02-2012, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VegasZ

A positive change how? By moving the some of the rotational mass outward 2" you should be losing power, not gaining it. From what I've read and experienced with my 350Z, a gaining power doesn't seem possible. I went from 18's to 19's and the setup was lighter than stock.....yet the car still felt like I had lost some power.

I said a positive change not gaining power per say...
You are sure the 19s were lighter then your stock 18s?

Its common knowledge lighter wheel/tire better performance for cornering, accelerating etc.

The circumference of the entire wheel/tire was the same as stock so its not going 2inches larger.. The car dynamics stay the same as far as the height of the tire... But the sidewall gets reduced aiding in cornering and the overall weight of the rim being reduced allows for the power being put to the ground to move the wheel with less overall effort.

Its like saying lift a 50 pound weight and then lift a 30 pound weight... It doesnt mean you are stronger by lifting the 30 pound weight easier it just takes less overall effort to lift. (my best analogy for this situation)

wstar · 04-02-2012, 12:23 PM

All of the above is true, but all other things (wheel/tire mfg, weight distribution/total, etc) being equal, if you kept the same sidewall height and dropped back to an 18" wheel, the car would perform even better.

The only performance reason to intentionally upsize wheels is to fit bigger brake rotors. You can run lighter wheels and shorter sidewalls in any diameter, and the smaller you get the outside diameter the better it is for acceleration (the gearing effect mentioned at length two posts up).

samb03 · 04-02-2012, 07:57 PM

Volt Z saw the positive change becaue he lowered the unsprung weight of the vehicle.
Unsprung weight is anything that isn't supported by the shocks and springs. Lighter brake calipers and suspension pieces can help improve the handling a car. The spring and shock are trying to press them down. With a lower inertia because of the reduced mass makes it easier to control. think if as catching a ping pong ball and a golf ball both traveling at the same speed. WHen it hits your hand the golf ball is going to make your hand move more and be harder to stop even though they are of similar size and speed.

Reducing rotating mass pays big dividends. The spinning wheels work like gyoscopes so turning them because more difficult as they gain speed. The extra inertia from a heavier wheel makes if harder to start moving, change direction, and to slow. Interia isthe tendency of a body to preserve its state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by an external force. the more mass it has the more external force is required.

It would make sense that if VolkZ bought a set of 18in rims of the same style as his 19's the 18's would be lighter and he would gained even better results. You also have to take in to acount the extra weight of the tires. To maintain the same tire diameter or rotational circumfrence(sp) an 18in tire is going to have 1 more inch of rubber on both sides off setting the weight reduction of the smaller rims. light brake disks also have the same effect. This is the reason for racing cross drilled rotors.

Lighter unstrung weight has a huge effect on motorcycles. This is why people pay $4000 set for CF rims that save them 4lbs. Since bikes don't have a built in camber setting , it is easier to tilt the wheel makes for a much more responsive ride.

samb03 · 04-02-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

All of the above is true, but all other things (wheel/tire mfg, weight distribution/total, etc) being equal, if you kept the same sidewall height and dropped back to an 18" wheel, the car would perform even better.

The only performance reason to intentionally upsize wheels is to fit bigger brake rotors. You can run lighter wheels and shorter sidewalls in any diameter, and the smaller you get the outside diameter the better it is for acceleration (the gearing effect mentioned at length two posts up).

Using the same sidewall ratio on 18's as you would a 19 would reduce the overall gearing ration. It would help it accelerate. If depends on the grip level of the tires if you over gear your car you can overload your tires and just melt them. I seriously down that it would be the issue on case the gearing change wouldn't be that great. It would throw off your speedometer, and raise the RPMs to go any given speed.

Volk Z · 04-03-2012, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samb03

Volt Z saw the positive change becaue he lowered the unsprung weight of the vehicle.
Unsprung weight is anything that isn't supported by the shocks and springs. Lighter brake calipers and suspension pieces can help improve the handling a car. The spring and shock are trying to press them down. With a lower inertia because of the reduced mass makes it easier to control. think if as catching a ping pong ball and a golf ball both traveling at the same speed. WHen it hits your hand the golf ball is going to make your hand move more and be harder to stop even though they are of similar size and speed.

Reducing rotating mass pays big dividends. The spinning wheels work like gyoscopes so turning them because more difficult as they gain speed. The extra inertia from a heavier wheel makes if harder to start moving, change direction, and to slow. Interia isthe tendency of a body to preserve its state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by an external force. the more mass it has the more external force is required.

It would make sense that if VolkZ bought a set of 18in rims of the same style as his 19's the 18's would be lighter and he would gained even better results. You also have to take in to acount the extra weight of the tires. To maintain the same tire diameter or rotational circumfrence(sp) an 18in tire is going to have 1 more inch of rubber on both sides off setting the weight reduction of the smaller rims. light brake disks also have the same effect. This is the reason for racing cross drilled rotors.

Lighter unstrung weight has a huge effect on motorcycles. This is why people pay $4000 set for CF rims that save them 4lbs. Since bikes don't have a built in camber setting , it is easier to tilt the wheel makes for a much more responsive ride.

Good write up! Rep+

cjr1881 · 04-05-2012, 08:56 PM

Whenever you change wheel size, you change profile of the tire to keep gearing the same, and also it would look ridiculous by either losing or gaining room in the wheel well. Total weight is the only thing that could effect acceleration. It's as simple as that.

gofaster87 · 04-05-2012, 09:10 PM

Moving from 18s to 19s or the other way around is not going to make a huge difference. Ive come to accept, after all these years, the butt dyno is not a good reference. The butt dyno reference is used way too much on this forum and almost all non track drivers are not going to be able to tell the difference. I know you want to believe you can feel it but let it go folks. A big difference in weight will induce an affect but it has to be a HUGE difference.

VegasZ · 04-05-2012, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjr1881

Whenever you change wheel size, you change profile of the tire to keep gearing the same, and also it would look ridiculous by either losing or gaining room in the wheel well. Total weight is the only thing that could effect acceleration. It's as simple as that.

Not true. If the majority of the weight is closer to the outside diameter, this WILL affect the effort needed to turn the wheels/tires. It has to do with the rotational mass being pushed further away from the center of the wheel.

samb03 · 04-06-2012, 02:37 AM

True VegasZ. Weight distribution is also a factor. If you have wheels that weight the same. If the design has a large mass centrally located by the hub with thin spokes going out the the rim, it will be require less energy to accelerate. If you have a rim that is has a thinner hub but has a more solid spoke design the weight is moved further out from the axis giving the outside mass more leverage to resist movement.

For those that need a visual. Take peice of rope and tie a weight close to your hand now spin it so the end of the rope is making an arc. Now grab the other end of the rope and spin it so all things being the same. The end of the rope is going to the travel the same distance but with weight further from the axis. Tell me which os more difficult. To start and stop.

03-29-2012, 11:34 AM	#16 (permalink)
Volk Z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Laguna Beach, CA Posts: 2,214 Drives: Nismo Z Rep Power: 3066	I remember my stock 17 inch 350Z wheels with tires weighed 54 pounds Swapped to my 19 inch Volk TE37s with tires they weighed around 49 pounds By going +2 in rim sizes but reducing the unsprung weight i actually noticed a positive change... Its always funny to hear someone go +2 and add like 10 pounds per wheel and wonder why their car feels slower! haha __________________ AMUSE * TOMEI * STILLEN * CRAFTSQUARE RECARO * 3M * TOP SECRET * SLICKCARBON

04-02-2012, 03:46 AM	#20 (permalink)
BGTV8 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: 03350 Australia Posts: 1,514 Drives: 09 Nissan 370Z M6 Rep Power: 39973	Folks - you are confusing torque, total tractive effort availble and power. The amount of torque produced by an engine at a given engine-speed will be constant (near enough). Power is the amount of "actual work" that can be done and is actually torque multiplied by time (usally expressed in engine rpm). Total tractive effort is the torque available at the road and is influenced by overall final drive ratio (including OD of the wheel/tyre assembly) The weblink to dyno charts graphs the same "power" but it is achieved over slight differing time periods and IMHO misrepresents the true facts .. I beleive the graph is showing "tractive effort" on the vertical axis. It is the slower time to acheive the same output (tractive effort) that you can perceive as "less power". What is not clear is the relative diameters of the wheel/tyre combination as this will cause the time for a given torque (available tractive effort at the tyre/dyno roller interface) to differ as it influences the gearing. Bear in mind that a gearbox and fnal drive ratio are effectively a torque multiplication device and will influence the time it takes for a given amount of torque to achieve a given rotational speed (and hence tractive effort measure). The seat of your pants will tell you that a 20" wheel with 35 profile tyre will accelerate more slowly that a 19" wheel wth the same profile tyre and this wil accelerate more slowly than a 18" wheel fitted with a 35 profile tyre - this is due to the realtive overall gearing ratio diferences. In fact, the same torque and engine rpm mean the same "power" figure at the flywheel, it is just that by changing the effctive gear ratio, you are altering the relative "total tractive effort" and this is what manifests as acceleration which you feel thru the seat. Differing weights of wheel/tyre assemlbies will not affect the torque (and therefore power) generated by the engine at the flywheel, but it will affect the ability of the engine to generate "tractive effort" as a consequence of gearing changes. To determine the differences in tractive effort due to rotational inertia alone (differing wheel assembly weights), you would need to repeat the tests with wheel/tyre combo having exactly the same rolling diameter. That said, lightweight wheels will reduce unspung weight which will improve mechanical grip as the damper has less weight to control and this makes the suspension more predictable in its behaviour - they will contribute to lower overall vehicle weight which improves the ability of a given amount of torque to accelerate the vehicle, as well as a reduction in torque losses attributed to accelerating the wheel and tyre itself. The discussion thread is about "power" but I really think the peception is about "time to accelerate the vehcile" and these are not the same thing. RB Last edited by BGTV8; 04-02-2012 at 03:50 AM.

04-02-2012, 12:23 PM	#22 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	All of the above is true, but all other things (wheel/tire mfg, weight distribution/total, etc) being equal, if you kept the same sidewall height and dropped back to an 18" wheel, the car would perform even better. The only performance reason to intentionally upsize wheels is to fit bigger brake rotors. You can run lighter wheels and shorter sidewalls in any diameter, and the smaller you get the outside diameter the better it is for acceleration (the gearing effect mentioned at length two posts up). __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

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03-29-2012, 02:09 PM	#17 (permalink)
Aizen Sosuke Base Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Miami Age: 40 Posts: 189 Drives: 09 370Z Sport Rep Power: 14	Tire Size Calculator - tire & wheel plus sizing The above link should help some still debating.

03-31-2012, 03:19 AM	#18 (permalink)
Alfamale Base Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Sunny Island Singapore Posts: 38 Drives: 09 370z black MT Rep Power: 14	simple useful Tire size calculator

04-02-2012, 07:57 PM	#23 (permalink)
samb03 Base Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: western Oklahoma Posts: 164 Drives: Black Cherry Sport Rep Power: 15	Volt Z saw the positive change becaue he lowered the unsprung weight of the vehicle. Unsprung weight is anything that isn't supported by the shocks and springs. Lighter brake calipers and suspension pieces can help improve the handling a car. The spring and shock are trying to press them down. With a lower inertia because of the reduced mass makes it easier to control. think if as catching a ping pong ball and a golf ball both traveling at the same speed. WHen it hits your hand the golf ball is going to make your hand move more and be harder to stop even though they are of similar size and speed. Reducing rotating mass pays big dividends. The spinning wheels work like gyoscopes so turning them because more difficult as they gain speed. The extra inertia from a heavier wheel makes if harder to start moving, change direction, and to slow. Interia isthe tendency of a body to preserve its state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by an external force. the more mass it has the more external force is required. It would make sense that if VolkZ bought a set of 18in rims of the same style as his 19's the 18's would be lighter and he would gained even better results. You also have to take in to acount the extra weight of the tires. To maintain the same tire diameter or rotational circumfrence(sp) an 18in tire is going to have 1 more inch of rubber on both sides off setting the weight reduction of the smaller rims. light brake disks also have the same effect. This is the reason for racing cross drilled rotors. Lighter unstrung weight has a huge effect on motorcycles. This is why people pay $4000 set for CF rims that save them 4lbs. Since bikes don't have a built in camber setting , it is easier to tilt the wheel makes for a much more responsive ride.

04-05-2012, 08:56 PM	#26 (permalink)
cjr1881 Base Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Hudson Falls, NY Posts: 75 Drives: '11 Black 370Z coupe Rep Power: 14	Whenever you change wheel size, you change profile of the tire to keep gearing the same, and also it would look ridiculous by either losing or gaining room in the wheel well. Total weight is the only thing that could effect acceleration. It's as simple as that.

04-05-2012, 09:10 PM	#27 (permalink)
gofaster87 Base Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 57 Drives: 2011 Nismo 370Z Rep Power: 13	Moving from 18s to 19s or the other way around is not going to make a huge difference. Ive come to accept, after all these years, the butt dyno is not a good reference. The butt dyno reference is used way too much on this forum and almost all non track drivers are not going to be able to tell the difference. I know you want to believe you can feel it but let it go folks. A big difference in weight will induce an affect but it has to be a HUGE difference.

04-06-2012, 02:37 AM	#29 (permalink)
samb03 Base Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: western Oklahoma Posts: 164 Drives: Black Cherry Sport Rep Power: 15	True VegasZ. Weight distribution is also a factor. If you have wheels that weight the same. If the design has a large mass centrally located by the hub with thin spokes going out the the rim, it will be require less energy to accelerate. If you have a rim that is has a thinner hub but has a more solid spoke design the weight is moved further out from the axis giving the outside mass more leverage to resist movement. For those that need a visual. Take peice of rope and tie a weight close to your hand now spin it so the end of the rope is making an arc. Now grab the other end of the rope and spin it so all things being the same. The end of the rope is going to the travel the same distance but with weight further from the axis. Tell me which os more difficult. To start and stop.