new spacers and studs; now sterring wheel vibrates

cheshirecat · 08-13-2012, 02:43 PM

I've always used H&R- never had a vibration issue. IMO, with the H&R it all depends on the install. As long as they are mounted/torqued correctly, you'll be ok. I've had several pairs/types over several cars.

As far as other brand spacers go, I can't really say. Good luck.

whoady4shoady · 08-13-2012, 02:49 PM

Ccat, do you recommend the stud replacement spacers? I've read they are safer. I will be doing the occasional autocross.

wstar · 08-13-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingZee

Yeah slight vibration while braking but don't really have any vibration at high speeds. I wanted to see if anyone was experiencing it before I bugged Lou about it. I'll give him a call next couple days see what he says.

Just FYI, although the common answer to that scenario is brake rotor issues, it's not the only answer by far. I've been fighting a vibration-under-high-speed-braking-only issue for months now. Been through 3 sets of rotors, changed tie rod ends, lower ball joints, wheel bearings... it's a damn nightmare to debug this. I'm hoping that during the course of my problems I actually had more than one problem, and that I've solved one of the problems already and now I'm just missing some lost wheel weights or whatever (going back for wheel balancing *again* tomorrow, which was the first thing I did in my debugging months ago).

I hadn't thought about the hubcentric rings in a long time though, so I'm glad this thread popped up and reminded me. I have plastic hubcentric rings on these Forgestars, and they've been through a lot. Maybe they're worn just a hair too much and that's contributing, and I just need to order some new plastic rings.

cheshirecat · 08-14-2012, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoady4shoady

Ccat, do you recommend the stud replacement spacers? I've read they are safer. I will be doing the occasional autocross.

I personally recommend the slip on over the stud replacement- 20/25 front/rear or 25/30 if you want it to sit flush with a drop.

Over all of the spacers used throughout the years, nobody has reported a problem with them in an autocross setting. Even Porsche uses spacers on their 911 GT3. Don't sweat it.

ChrisSlicks · 08-14-2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Just FYI, although the common answer to that scenario is brake rotor issues, it's not the only answer by far. I've been fighting a vibration-under-high-speed-braking-only issue for months now. Been through 3 sets of rotors, changed tie rod ends, lower ball joints, wheel bearings... it's a damn nightmare to debug this. I'm hoping that during the course of my problems I actually had more than one problem, and that I've solved one of the problems already and now I'm just missing some lost wheel weights or whatever (going back for wheel balancing *again* tomorrow, which was the first thing I did in my debugging months ago).

I hadn't thought about the hubcentric rings in a long time though, so I'm glad this thread popped up and reminded me. I have plastic hubcentric rings on these Forgestars, and they've been through a lot. Maybe they're worn just a hair too much and that's contributing, and I just need to order some new plastic rings.

Pull them off and try, I don't even bother with them any more. Just tighten the lugs incrementally to get everything nice and centered.

wstar · 08-14-2012, 12:51 PM

Yeah I'm always anal about lugs. I snug them by hand until I get the holes perfectly centered, then I do just half a turn or whatever to feel slightly snug with a regular half-inch wrench in a star pattern, then I switch to the torque wrench and star-pattern them first to 55 and then to 85. So I wouldn't think the rings would be an issue regardless, but I'm just scraping for any idea at this point.

Took the car down to a shop this morning to let them debug and comment on it. Don't know if they're the world's best front-end guys or not, but at least they have really nice alignment/balance/lathe equipment and they've done good work for me before, and they're nice honest guys.

Their guy says no way it could be anything but a rotor issue, the suspension is all tight, etc, esp given what I've already replaced, but of course he can't lathe my 2-piece floaters (I told him to go ahead and try anyways just for the hell of it, but it didn't go well).

All normal advice on the problem is "brake rotor issues", but I've got a pile of brand-new supposedly high quality rotors from two different manufacturers that I've run through the car and still had the same issue

. I even checked the last 1-piece rotors (from Z1) with a dial gauge myself and they were well within spec (checking runout mounted on the car, lugnuts holding the rotor on the hub).

Some days I just feel like driving this car off a damn cliff :P

ChrisSlicks · 08-14-2012, 01:57 PM

Yeah brake vibration is annoying. There are a couple of things that can cause it in a fixed caliper setup.

1) Sticking piston. If pressure from the pistons is applied unevenly to the rotor then it will distort the rotor under braking and transfer it to the hub and wheel.

2) Pads leaving deposits on rotors. I had this with the DS2500 pads, they worked great for the 1st session, started getting a little vibration in the 2nd session, and by the end of the day they shake was horrible. When I pulled the pads I could see they were wearing very quickly and tapering. I switched pads and tried to scrub off as much as I could. Eventually they came true again (2-piece AP).

3) Warped rotor, or over expanded rotor ring. For fixed mount 2-piece rotors if you get them outside of their operating temperature range they can bind up in the hat hardware and cause distortion.

wstar · 08-14-2012, 02:41 PM

Just rebuilt the calipers a couple weeks ago also, so no pistons should be sticking. Pad deposits are always a possibility, but again I keep seeing this same problem putting on new rotors, on the first trip out to bed them (and I usually only lightly bed them since I can feel the vibration and know it's all a waste at that point). Haven't run at the track lately since I can't fix this, so I haven't heated anything up enough to distort/warp anything. I guess I'll try another new pair of front rotors, but take them to a machine shop first to verify their level of perfection and/or correct on a lathe?

fuct · 08-14-2012, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cptspeed

Just for a quick check, take the front spacers off and remount the rims. If the vibration goes away, its not a balance issue. This is how I found out my spacers were causing my vibration.

How can you do this without bottoming out the lug nut on the stud? without the spacer the studs are too long for the factory lugs. now open ended lugs would be fine, but not the closed ones.

ChrisSlicks · 08-14-2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuct

How can you do this without bottoming out the lug nut on the stud? without the spacer the studs are too long for the factory lugs. now open ended lugs would be fine, but not the closed ones.

The factory lugs have 15mm of headroom. But I think in this case he is talking about the Forgestar wheels.

fuct · 08-14-2012, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

The factory lugs have 15mm of headroom. But I think in this case he is talking about the Forgestar wheels.

good to know! thx

BrandonSS · 03-20-2014, 06:27 PM

Bump.

I'm having a vibration/shaking wheel thats driving me nuts after installing 10mm ichiba spacers and studs.

Can a bent stud cause this? I cant think of anything else. I had the wheels road force balanced and now have brand new tires and still shaking. The spacers are slip on hub centric and I also have hub centric rings for my wheels.

I'm stumped. And yes I've tightened them with the front end off the ground in the typical star pattern. I'm at a loss and I'm not even sure a shop could or would be able to help out. Most wont touch spacers and even if they would, how could they figure this out any better than I can with the forum's advice.

Thanks

wstar · 03-20-2014, 06:46 PM

Have you re-torqued the lugs since driving on them? Especially with brand-new studs (I assume you swapped in 10mm extended studs to clear through the spacers), sometimes the stud isn't seated fully when you first install it. Driving and re-torquing you'll find those and tighten them down into place.

BrandonSS · 03-20-2014, 09:50 PM

I installed them in October, so yes lol i stored the car in November and just got it out, drove two days, retorqued them, drove again, still vibrated, ordered all new tires, installed, drove, retorqued and still giving a shimmy. Today lifted the car again, dismounted, put my wife in the car to hold the brake, reinstalled and torqued them down, sat it down, and.... You guessed it... Shimmy.

One stud on the passenger gave me a little trouble last fall when installing it and it went in slightly angled but torqued the wheels down, pulled them off and it seemed to finish seating it correctly. But my worry was that maybe that one might be giving me problems somehow. I can't identify which one it is now so it looks to be good.

My second thought was, can a hub actually bend from the firm tapping when punching out the oem studs?

Aside from that the only thing left is a untrue spacer?

I have no clue how to diagnose this.

wstar · 03-20-2014, 11:09 PM

"Firm tapping"? Depends how firm it was, and if the tapping was delivered with a sledgehammer

I've been using a little "ball joint separator" tool to press mine out instead of beating them out, something almost exactly like this thing: 3/4" Forged Ball Joint Separator. (Edit: also a good trick for installing new ones: buy a huge stack of large washers and a few cheap nuts that are the same thread as the lugnuts, stack washers over the barely-installed stud, use impact wrench w/ nut to tighten against the washer stack and seat the stud).

The hub flange itself is pretty damn thick, but what I would be more worried about than bending the flange is damaging the wheel bearings the flange rides on. If you have a dial gauge for checking e.g. rotor runout, you could try using that on the hub, but a lot of bearing issues only show up under real load, and wouldn't be apparent in the air with the wheels off. You can also try pulling on the wheels while it's lifted and seeing if you can detect unusual bearing play in one wheel relative to the others.

If it does end up being a bearing, luckily replacing bearings is easy on this car, no hydraulic press involved. The whole bearing/hub is a single unit, about $160/corner from Nissan, and you just unbolt the old one and bolt in the new one.

08-14-2012, 12:51 PM	#51 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Yeah I'm always anal about lugs. I snug them by hand until I get the holes perfectly centered, then I do just half a turn or whatever to feel slightly snug with a regular half-inch wrench in a star pattern, then I switch to the torque wrench and star-pattern them first to 55 and then to 85. So I wouldn't think the rings would be an issue regardless, but I'm just scraping for any idea at this point. Took the car down to a shop this morning to let them debug and comment on it. Don't know if they're the world's best front-end guys or not, but at least they have really nice alignment/balance/lathe equipment and they've done good work for me before, and they're nice honest guys. Their guy says no way it could be anything but a rotor issue, the suspension is all tight, etc, esp given what I've already replaced, but of course he can't lathe my 2-piece floaters (I told him to go ahead and try anyways just for the hell of it, but it didn't go well). All normal advice on the problem is "brake rotor issues", but I've got a pile of brand-new supposedly high quality rotors from two different manufacturers that I've run through the car and still had the same issue . I even checked the last 1-piece rotors (from Z1) with a dial gauge myself and they were well within spec (checking runout mounted on the car, lugnuts holding the rotor on the hub). Some days I just feel like driving this car off a damn cliff :P __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

08-14-2012, 01:57 PM	#52 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	Yeah brake vibration is annoying. There are a couple of things that can cause it in a fixed caliper setup. 1) Sticking piston. If pressure from the pistons is applied unevenly to the rotor then it will distort the rotor under braking and transfer it to the hub and wheel. 2) Pads leaving deposits on rotors. I had this with the DS2500 pads, they worked great for the 1st session, started getting a little vibration in the 2nd session, and by the end of the day they shake was horrible. When I pulled the pads I could see they were wearing very quickly and tapering. I switched pads and tried to scrub off as much as I could. Eventually they came true again (2-piece AP). 3) Warped rotor, or over expanded rotor ring. For fixed mount 2-piece rotors if you get them outside of their operating temperature range they can bind up in the hat hardware and cause distortion. __________________ Hotchkis ARB \| Stillen CAI \| Art Pipes \| Berk CBE \| Stillen AP Racing Brakes \| AE Performance Oil Cooler \| BC Racing ER Coilovers \| Doran Control Arms

08-14-2012, 02:41 PM	#53 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Just rebuilt the calipers a couple weeks ago also, so no pistons should be sticking. Pad deposits are always a possibility, but again I keep seeing this same problem putting on new rotors, on the first trip out to bed them (and I usually only lightly bed them since I can feel the vibration and know it's all a waste at that point). Haven't run at the track lately since I can't fix this, so I haven't heated anything up enough to distort/warp anything. I guess I'll try another new pair of front rotors, but take them to a machine shop first to verify their level of perfection and/or correct on a lathe? __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-20-2014, 06:46 PM	#58 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Have you re-torqued the lugs since driving on them? Especially with brand-new studs (I assume you swapped in 10mm extended studs to clear through the spacers), sometimes the stud isn't seated fully when you first install it. Driving and re-torquing you'll find those and tighten them down into place. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-20-2014, 11:09 PM	#60 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	"Firm tapping"? Depends how firm it was, and if the tapping was delivered with a sledgehammer I've been using a little "ball joint separator" tool to press mine out instead of beating them out, something almost exactly like this thing: 3/4" Forged Ball Joint Separator. (Edit: also a good trick for installing new ones: buy a huge stack of large washers and a few cheap nuts that are the same thread as the lugnuts, stack washers over the barely-installed stud, use impact wrench w/ nut to tighten against the washer stack and seat the stud). The hub flange itself is pretty damn thick, but what I would be more worried about than bending the flange is damaging the wheel bearings the flange rides on. If you have a dial gauge for checking e.g. rotor runout, you could try using that on the hub, but a lot of bearing issues only show up under real load, and wouldn't be apparent in the air with the wheels off. You can also try pulling on the wheels while it's lifted and seeing if you can detect unusual bearing play in one wheel relative to the others. If it does end up being a bearing, luckily replacing bearings is easy on this car, no hydraulic press involved. The whole bearing/hub is a single unit, about $160/corner from Nissan, and you just unbolt the old one and bolt in the new one. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details Last edited by wstar; 03-20-2014 at 11:15 PM.

08-13-2012, 02:43 PM	#46 (permalink)
cheshirecat A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 1,428 Drives: N54 135i Rep Power: 292	I've always used H&R- never had a vibration issue. IMO, with the H&R it all depends on the install. As long as they are mounted/torqued correctly, you'll be ok. I've had several pairs/types over several cars. As far as other brand spacers go, I can't really say. Good luck.

03-20-2014, 06:27 PM	#57 (permalink)
BrandonSS Track Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Indianapolis Age: 42 Posts: 644 Drives: 2009 370z T/S/techM6 Rep Power: 13	Bump. I'm having a vibration/shaking wheel thats driving me nuts after installing 10mm ichiba spacers and studs. Can a bent stud cause this? I cant think of anything else. I had the wheels road force balanced and now have brand new tires and still shaking. The spacers are slip on hub centric and I also have hub centric rings for my wheels. I'm stumped. And yes I've tightened them with the front end off the ground in the typical star pattern. I'm at a loss and I'm not even sure a shop could or would be able to help out. Most wont touch spacers and even if they would, how could they figure this out any better than I can with the forum's advice. Thanks

03-20-2014, 09:50 PM	#59 (permalink)
BrandonSS Track Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Indianapolis Age: 42 Posts: 644 Drives: 2009 370z T/S/techM6 Rep Power: 13	I installed them in October, so yes lol i stored the car in November and just got it out, drove two days, retorqued them, drove again, still vibrated, ordered all new tires, installed, drove, retorqued and still giving a shimmy. Today lifted the car again, dismounted, put my wife in the car to hold the brake, reinstalled and torqued them down, sat it down, and.... You guessed it... Shimmy. One stud on the passenger gave me a little trouble last fall when installing it and it went in slightly angled but torqued the wheels down, pulled them off and it seemed to finish seating it correctly. But my worry was that maybe that one might be giving me problems somehow. I can't identify which one it is now so it looks to be good. My second thought was, can a hub actually bend from the firm tapping when punching out the oem studs? Aside from that the only thing left is a untrue spacer? I have no clue how to diagnose this.

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