Is using Nitrogen a bunch of hot air

didymus · 07-11-2010, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbs370z

I don't know what people mean when they say N is more stable.

Remembering high school physics: P1T1 = P2T2. In other words, you heat a gas up a certain amount then the pressure goes up a certain amount. Doesn't matter what gas you're talking about. Maybe they mean no Oxygen is safer and better (uh, less oxidation). Ya, I'll buy that.

Anyways, I just bought a Coupe w/Sport pkg today (yahoo!), and it has green caps on the valve stems. Does that mean they put Nitrogen in the tires, or are they just pretty green caps?

Well your physics is off a bit but you're right about it not nattering what gas it is. An stability is quite a vague statement. Although I have no experience with nitrogen in tires, it does seem like a bunch of hype..

pbs370z · 07-11-2010, 03:43 PM

Ya, it was late last night. I believe the equation is P1/T1 = P2/T2. Corrections welcome!

Frozenr6 · 07-11-2010, 10:20 PM

where to start with this one I work in an industry where we make siginifcant investment in tires about 30 million a year and we dont use nitrogen in our tires. And we have examined it at length.

1) The stability over temperature argument - is not that simple, this goes to why race teams use nitrogen. It is not actually stability that they are chasing it is the absolutely predictable rate of expansion dervied from not having any moisture in the tire. When you are looking at .5 pounds of pressure making a handling difference being able to truly cold fill a tire and know what the hot temperature is going to be is a must. Partial myth there due to no applicability to road cars.

2) The tires will run cooler - current advances in tire temperature pressure and temperature monitoring have born this to be a myth, as long as the inflation of both tires is the same there is no measureable difference.

3) Why do airplanes use nitrogen - primarily because at levels exceeding 94.5% purity nitrogen is inert meaning that the tire is less likely to explode due to pyrolysis occuring within the tires.

4) The fuel economy improvement argument - this is predicated on maintaining tire pressure correctly and is a flawed argument, in that if you dont measure pressure pre-nitrogen you will not with nitrogen either, in anecdotal trending it would indicate that those running nitrogen have a false sense of security on their pressures.

5) Corrosion of belts and interior carcass - ding this is true...... but tell me when was the last time that you wore out the interior of the tire before the tread?? I have never done that myself. This is further hampered by what some others have mentioned, eliminating a small amount of moisture from the inside does nothing to mitagate all the pesky oxygen, moisture and the bonus prize UV from attacking the outside of the carcass.

This was primarily aimed at long haul truck applications that retread non steering axle tires and ensuring that the case was reuseable, but in recent effort one of our major tire providers did a controlled study on their truck fleet and could not demonstrat a cost benefit to using nitrogen on their own fleet.

The basics need to be understood, in order to have meaningful inflation with nirogen you must have a greater than 99% pure source. This is the only way to ensure that the tire can be inflated to 96-98% pure nitrogen and that is predicated on being able to fill the tire, deflate and re-inflate to displace the O2 already in the tire at atmospheric pressure. This holds true for every tire that someone needed to top of with compressed air due to lack of facilities.

To test the level of nitrogen in a tire you need to actually measure the level of Oxygen in the tire and surmise from there.

We can start a whole different debate on the processes used to deliver compressed nitrogen and their effectiveness in another topic later if need be.

Cliffs Notes: if you maintain your tire pressure correctly anyway Nitrogen is a good way too waste your money. I would not pay ever to have my tires filled with Nitrogen.

otftrble · 08-01-2010, 10:12 PM

i have it in all my vehicles and it kicks *** i really think they ride is better i have it in my lexus and in my Z and even in my dump trucks

pbs370z · 08-02-2010, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozenr6

where to start with this one I work in an industry where we make siginifcant investment in tires about 30 million a year and we dont use nitrogen in our tires. And we have examined it at length.

1) The stability over temperature argument - is not that simple, this goes to why race teams use nitrogen. It is not actually stability that they are chasing it is the absolutely predictable rate of expansion dervied from not having any moisture in the tire. When you are looking at .5 pounds of pressure making a handling difference being able to truly cold fill a tire and know what the hot temperature is going to be is a must. Partial myth there due to no applicability to road cars.
.

What you say about Nitrogen being more stable due to no water in the tire makes sense. I also remember from Physics 101 that water expands to something like 1500 times its volume when it changes to a gas, so no water in the air or nitrogen would make the pressure more stable (at least that makes sense to me). I would think that dry air would work about as well. Nitrogen sounds cooler though.

pbs370z · 08-02-2010, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otftrble

i have it in all my vehicles and it kicks *** i really think they ride is better i have it in my lexus and in my Z and even in my dump trucks

I thinks its all in your head...

elmz · 08-03-2010, 12:07 PM

All I know is F1 cars use them, which means there is an advantage than using regular compressed air. But F1 teams spend millions to gain a tenth of a second...so unless you are a hard core racer or have the money to spend, go for it. I'll spend 75 cents for regular air =).

Push370zzz · 08-03-2010, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dszombiex

^^^ Check that link.

Btw composition of the earth's atmosphere:

Nitrogen (N2) 780,840 ppmv (78.084%)
Oxygen (O2) 209,460 ppmv (20.946%)
Argon (Ar) 9,340 ppmv (0.9340%)
Carbon dioxide (CO2) 387 ppmv (0.0387%)
Neon (Ne) 18.18 ppmv (0.001818%)
Helium (He) 5.24 ppmv (0.000524%)
Methane (CH4) 1.79 ppmv (0.000179%)
Krypton (Kr) 1.14 ppmv (0.000114%)
Hydrogen (H2) 0.55 ppmv (0.000055%)
Nitrous oxide (N2O) 0.3 ppmv (0.00003%)
Xenon (Xe) 0.09 ppmv (9 × 10−6%)
Ozone (O3) 0.0 to 0.07 ppmv (0% to 7 × 10−6%)
Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) 0.02 ppmv (2 × 10−6%)
Iodine (I) 0.01 ppmv (1 × 10−6%)
Carbon monoxide (CO) 0.1 ppmv (0.00001%)
Ammonia (NH3) trace

Haha was just going to point this out. Air is mostly N2 anyways...why pay more for it!!

Red__Zed · 08-03-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbs370z

Ya, it was late last night. I believe the equation is P1/T1 = P2/T2. Corrections welcome!

those equations assume the same gas on both sides of the equations....

Think PV=nRT...

n2 is ever so slightly more stable. No reason to pay extra for it. Costco does n2 for free though!

07-11-2010, 03:43 PM	#62 (permalink)
pbs370z Base Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Near Portland, OR Posts: 92 Drives: '10 370Z, Sport Pkg Rep Power: 3370	Ya, it was late last night. I believe the equation is P1/T1 = P2/T2. Corrections welcome! Last edited by pbs370z; 07-11-2010 at 03:46 PM.

07-11-2010, 10:20 PM	#63 (permalink)
Frozenr6 Base Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Calgary, AB Posts: 11 Drives: '10 370Z Rep Power: 15	where to start with this one I work in an industry where we make siginifcant investment in tires about 30 million a year and we dont use nitrogen in our tires. And we have examined it at length. 1) The stability over temperature argument - is not that simple, this goes to why race teams use nitrogen. It is not actually stability that they are chasing it is the absolutely predictable rate of expansion dervied from not having any moisture in the tire. When you are looking at .5 pounds of pressure making a handling difference being able to truly cold fill a tire and know what the hot temperature is going to be is a must. Partial myth there due to no applicability to road cars. 2) The tires will run cooler - current advances in tire temperature pressure and temperature monitoring have born this to be a myth, as long as the inflation of both tires is the same there is no measureable difference. 3) Why do airplanes use nitrogen - primarily because at levels exceeding 94.5% purity nitrogen is inert meaning that the tire is less likely to explode due to pyrolysis occuring within the tires. 4) The fuel economy improvement argument - this is predicated on maintaining tire pressure correctly and is a flawed argument, in that if you dont measure pressure pre-nitrogen you will not with nitrogen either, in anecdotal trending it would indicate that those running nitrogen have a false sense of security on their pressures. 5) Corrosion of belts and interior carcass - ding this is true...... but tell me when was the last time that you wore out the interior of the tire before the tread?? I have never done that myself. This is further hampered by what some others have mentioned, eliminating a small amount of moisture from the inside does nothing to mitagate all the pesky oxygen, moisture and the bonus prize UV from attacking the outside of the carcass. This was primarily aimed at long haul truck applications that retread non steering axle tires and ensuring that the case was reuseable, but in recent effort one of our major tire providers did a controlled study on their truck fleet and could not demonstrat a cost benefit to using nitrogen on their own fleet. The basics need to be understood, in order to have meaningful inflation with nirogen you must have a greater than 99% pure source. This is the only way to ensure that the tire can be inflated to 96-98% pure nitrogen and that is predicated on being able to fill the tire, deflate and re-inflate to displace the O2 already in the tire at atmospheric pressure. This holds true for every tire that someone needed to top of with compressed air due to lack of facilities. To test the level of nitrogen in a tire you need to actually measure the level of Oxygen in the tire and surmise from there. We can start a whole different debate on the processes used to deliver compressed nitrogen and their effectiveness in another topic later if need be. Cliffs Notes: if you maintain your tire pressure correctly anyway Nitrogen is a good way too waste your money. I would not pay ever to have my tires filled with Nitrogen. Last edited by Frozenr6; 07-12-2010 at 12:38 AM.

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08-01-2010, 10:12 PM	#64 (permalink)
otftrble Base Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: pittsburgh pa Posts: 27 Drives: 2010 370 Z red Rep Power: 15	i have it in all my vehicles and it kicks *** i really think they ride is better i have it in my lexus and in my Z and even in my dump trucks

08-03-2010, 12:07 PM	#67 (permalink)
elmz Track Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 674 Drives: 2014 Porsche Boxster Rep Power: 17	All I know is F1 cars use them, which means there is an advantage than using regular compressed air. But F1 teams spend millions to gain a tenth of a second...so unless you are a hard core racer or have the money to spend, go for it. I'll spend 75 cents for regular air =).