Cobb vs UpRev

355890 · 07-08-2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

But the drama is half the fun!

Drama - No, I believe confusion would be better fit.

FricFrac · 07-09-2009, 12:46 AM

Yea I know I've learned a lot and I think I'm still more confused than when I started

Anyhow from what I can tell is the dyno tune option I have is gonna be around $900 ($1200 by the time my travel expenses are taken into account). Its an UpRev dyno tune and I have the option of up to five maps selectable by cruise control. I doesn't sound like there is any hardware included (Osiris?) or the OS software (Cipher?) just the modified MAP. Its about $400 for the dyno time and around $500 for the software mod.

I agree reverse engineering the software and coding your own OS for the ECU is impressive and should be charged for - but $300 per license for an ukernal operating system seems awefully steep. Now to interface to that software you have to spend another $400 for the Osiris software? Is Osiris useless without Cipher?

Granted you get three E-Tunes but what percentage accurate is that in comparison to a dyno tune - that will give us a good idea of the value of the product in comparison to just getting you MAP done with a dyno tune....

So it sounds like a dyno tune with the UpRev system doesn't get me anything other than an optimized MAP specifically for my car - no hardware - no custom OS for $1200. That seems steep to me but I don't know what every one else is being charged - anyone - Beuler?

NIZMOZ · 07-09-2009, 09:07 AM

You get the OBDII cable which is what costs the most. It's only $150 for the tune time. Cipher is the diagnostic logging software that you need if you ever plan to change your parameters and see what the car is doing.

Again here is the process.

1) Start Cipher, set the parameters to log, and run it. Do some 0-60-90 runs, do some Highway pulls.

2) Send them the logs.

3) They adjust the ECU parameters they did of your car on the dyno to what it needs now.

4) They email them back to you and you update your ECU. And you are done.

Cipher is $300. Osiris on top of that is $400. Dyno Tune another $150.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FricFrac

Yea I know I've learned a lot and I think I'm still more confused than when I started

Anyhow from what I can tell is the dyno tune option I have is gonna be around $900 ($1200 by the time my travel expenses are taken into account). Its an UpRev dyno tune and I have the option of up to five maps selectable by cruise control. I doesn't sound like there is any hardware included (Osiris?) or the OS software (Cipher?) just the modified MAP. Its about $400 for the dyno time and around $500 for the software mod.

I agree reverse engineering the software and coding your own OS for the ECU is impressive and should be charged for - but $300 per license for an ukernal operating system seems awefully steep. Now to interface to that software you have to spend another $400 for the Osiris software? Is Osiris useless without Cipher?

Granted you get three E-Tunes but what percentage accurate is that in comparison to a dyno tune - that will give us a good idea of the value of the product in comparison to just getting you MAP done with a dyno tune....

So it sounds like a dyno tune with the UpRev system doesn't get me anything other than an optimized MAP specifically for my car - no hardware - no custom OS for $1200. That seems steep to me but I don't know what every one else is being charged - anyone - Beuler?

semtex · 07-09-2009, 09:31 AM

FricFrac,

I'm not sure your travel expenses should be part of the equation, because that's not really on whoever makes the tuning software or does the tuning, know what I mean? On the other hand, in so far as you're trying to make a personal decision, it's obviously relevant, so I guess we could go either way. Anyway, let's tackle this one piece at at time.

Quote:

Anyhow from what I can tell is the dyno tune option I have is gonna be around $900 ($1200 by the time my travel expenses are taken into account). Its an UpRev dyno tune and I have the option of up to five maps selectable by cruise control. I doesn't sound like there is any hardware included (Osiris?) or the OS software (Cipher?) just the modified MAP. Its about $400 for the dyno time and around $500 for the software mod.

Okay, for the dyno tune option, you are correct that there is no hardware or software included. You get the new maps loaded into your ECU and that's it. $900 sounds about right, esp. if that's in Cdn dollars.

Quote:

I agree reverse engineering the software and coding your own OS for the ECU is impressive and should be charged for - but $300 per license for an ukernal operating system seems awefully steep. Now to interface to that software you have to spend another $400 for the Osiris software? Is Osiris useless without Cipher?

Yes Osiris is useless without Cipher. That's why Cipher is included with Osiris, as they clearly state on their website. So if you get Osiris Standard (presumably to go the eTune route instead of dyno tuning), your total cost is $700 US, period. Like I said, it includes Cipher. It has to, because Cipher is what logs the data. You then send those logs to UpRev and they build your eTune maps off of that data. Hence my remark that Osiris is useless without Cipher. Then they send those eTune maps back to you, and you load them into your ECU via Osiris.

I think you're on the verge of making this more complicated than it needs to be. Your options, as best as I can simplify them, are as follows:

Get a dyno tune with UpRev. Total cost to you including travel is $1200. If you want to be able to datalog afterwards, you will need to spend another $300 (US) and purchase Cipher, plus supply your own laptop. The total then goes up to roughly $1500 (probably something like $1540 once you do the currency conversion on the $300 for Cipher).
Forgo the dyno tune and just rely on eTunes with UpRev Osiris Standard. Total cost to you is $700 US, and it includes Cipher. So you have the datalogging software, but you still need to supply your own hardware (laptop) (they do give you the OBDII cable though). How accurate are the eTunes? More accurate than a generic map because the maps are being built off of the data from your car, but a little less accurate than a true dyno tune, because the tuner isn't there to actually get a feel for what your car is doing.
Get a dyno tune with Cobb. I don't know if you have a Cobb Pro-Tuner in your area or how much they charge, so the price is not known at this point. But you should expect it to be around $1200, not including any travel costs. So it's more expensive than a dyno tune with UpRev, but you get the Cobb AP handheld unit which does the datalogging. So no need to spend an extra $300 for datalogging software, and no need to supply your own laptop. If travel is also $300, then your total goes up to $1500, which makes it a wash between an UpRev dyno tune and a Cobb dyno tune, at least in terms of price. If it costs the same, then it boils down to preference at this point between having a standalone handheld unit from Cobb vs. having to use your own laptop with UpRev Cipher. On the other hand, with UpRev you can switch maps via your cruise control buttons, and you can't do that with Cobb. So which is more important to you? The cruise control button functionality? Or not having to use your own laptop for datalogging? I think that's the deciding factor between options 1 and 3.
There's a fourth option that we haven't given much attention to. Cobb also has its own 'eTune' type service, where you buy the Cobb AP, log the data, then send it in to a Cobb Pro-Tuner (like Sharif) and have him build your maps and send them back to you. Then you upload them via the Cobb AP handheld. I don't know what the total cost of this option is. The AP unit is $695, then you'd have to pay the tuner separately. (Maybe you should PM Sharif to see how much he'd charge). BUT, we already know that it's going to end up costing more than UpRev's eTune service. Because Osiris Standard costs $700, and it includes 3 eTunes. With Cobb, you're basically paying $700 just for the AP unit before the cost of the eTunes even enters into things. But again, that doesn't automatically mean that Cobb is ripoff, because you're getting a standalone unit with them, and not with UpRev.

Those are your options. Step 1 in your decision making process now is to ask yourself: Do you want a full-blown dyno tune? Or will an eTune suffice? If you want a full-blown dyno tune, you need to chose between options 1 and 3. If you are content with an eTune, you need to choose between options 2 and 4 (and for option 4 you need to PM Sharif to find out how much he'd charge to do your eTune maps before you'll know total cost of that option).

I don't think I can make it any more simple than this. (And you may thank me with rep.

)

semtex · 07-09-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIZMOZ

You get the OBDII cable which is what costs the most. It's only $150 for the tune time. Cipher is the diagnostic logging software that you need if you ever plan to change your parameters and see what the car is doing.

Again here is the process.

1) Start Cipher, set the parameters to log, and run it. Do some 0-60-90 runs, do some Highway pulls.

2) Send them the logs.

3) They adjust the ECU parameters they did of your car on the dyno to what it needs now.

4) They email them back to you and you update your ECU. And you are done.

Cipher is $300. Osiris on top of that is $400. Dyno Tune another $150.

I'm not following the part about the Dyno Tune. How can you say that dyno tune time is only $150? Doesn't that depend on his tuner? And it sounds to me like his tuner already told him that he charges $400 for the dyno tune. In any case, why would he purchase Cipher/Osiris and then pay for a dyno tune on top of that? I thought the whole selling point of Osiris was that you can use their eTune service in lieu of a full-blown dyno tune and save some money that way. i.e., it's one or the other, not both. (?)

LiquidZ · 07-09-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I'm not following the part about the Dyno Tune. How can you say that dyno tune time is only $150? Doesn't that depend on his tuner? And it sounds to me like his tuner already told him that he charges $400 for the dyno tune. In any case, why would he purchase Cipher/Osiris and then pay for a dyno tune on top of that? I thought the whole selling point of Osiris was that you can use their eTune service in lieu of a full-blown dyno tune and save some money that way. i.e., it's one or the other, not both. (?)

That's pretty much what I was thinking.

NIZMOZ · 07-09-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I'm not following the part about the Dyno Tune. How can you say that dyno tune time is only $150? Doesn't that depend on his tuner? And it sounds to me like his tuner already told him that he charges $400 for the dyno tune. In any case, why would he purchase Cipher/Osiris and then pay for a dyno tune on top of that? I thought the whole selling point of Osiris was that you can use their eTune service in lieu of a full-blown dyno tune and save some money that way. i.e., it's one or the other, not both. (?)

That is what I was quoted from UPREV for dyno time to tune the car. So I just quoted it that way.

You have to pay for the amount of time you are on the dyno. Any tuning software is like this. They can sell you the software but they won't let you use the dyno for free. You still have to tune your car on the dyno. So without that you are SOL.

If you don't want a custom tune to your car, to your mods, then yes you can do the E-Tune service. But that is not available yet even on the HR engine as they don't have enough cars and mods in their system to do this yet to know what to adjust for power gains. So expect a long wait on that.

HP Logic · 07-09-2009, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged

Good discussions going on here.

We are ProTuners for both Cobb and UpRev, and have quite a bit of experience with both of them, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I think we are one of the few Nissan based shops that has hands on experience tuning the Cobb AP, which we've done with the GT-R, and also the EvoX.

Hey Sharif! dont forget about me!

....as a fellow COBB GTR, Nissan, Subaru Pro-tuner...as well as Osiris....i can also answer any questions and will give my input as well....

.....Both systems are very effective when used properly....Cobb is in my opinion a more "End-user" friendly system with its Access-Port keeping your maps handy for quick changes...and as a Datalog tool....

....The Osiris software on the other hand is a bit more tech rich with its Cipher integration and "Real Time Tuning"...(unavailable for nissan on the Cobb as of now)....

Both Cobb and UPREV are devoted to their software development and it is evident in the products they put out for us!....without these companies the tuning world for nissan would be dismal...

....I cant begin to express how excited I am to finally get to spend some tuning time on the 370z!!!...this week has been an eye opener with the Cobb release....hopefully the Osiris update is not too far off.... would love to see how they stack up against each other....

-Jack

Sharif@Forged · 07-09-2009, 10:43 PM

^^I said "one" of the few^^ Welcome.

semtex · 07-10-2009, 09:06 AM

Can one of you guys elaborate on what the Real Time Tuning is, and what its benefits are?

westpak · 07-10-2009, 10:06 AM

Real Time Tuning (RTT) allows you to select some parameters that will be modifed in real time as you make the run on the dyno, as opposed to the normal way of doing the run then analyzing the results and making changes and then reruning the car to see the effect of your changes.

HP Logic · 07-10-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged

^^I said "one" of the few^^ Welcome.

Just meesin with ya!...

.....ok back on topic...sorry.

semtex · 07-10-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westpak@HPLogic

Real Time Tuning (RTT) allows you to select some parameters that will be modifed in real time as you make the run on the dyno, as opposed to the normal way of doing the run then analyzing the results and making changes and then reruning the car to see the effect of your changes.

Thanks for explaining. So in terms of end result, does it really make any difference? I mean it sounds like it saves time on the dyno, but doesn't really make a difference to the net gain you end up with. Am I right?

westpak · 07-10-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Thanks for explaining. So in terms of end result, does it really make any difference? I mean it sounds like it saves time on the dyno, but doesn't really make a difference to the net gain you end up with. Am I right?

yeap you are right

t-ray · 07-10-2009, 01:37 PM

One thing that I would like to point out is street tuning. I don't know about the cobb unit, but with something like Osiris(end-user tuning option)+Cipher, one has all the tools necessary to make the ultimate street tune. After all, even the most sophisticated dyno is nothing but an approximation.

With something like Cipher, one can log with ultra high precision how long it takes to accelerate between two given speeds in a given gear. Make some adjustments, and make another run. The cipher logs should be precise to the ~10 millisecond level.

I don't know what the logging capabilities are of the AP unit.

07-09-2009, 12:46 AM	#77 (permalink)
FricFrac A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 1,481 Drives: 370Z 300ZX 280ZX 240 Rep Power: 228	Yea I know I've learned a lot and I think I'm still more confused than when I started Anyhow from what I can tell is the dyno tune option I have is gonna be around $900 ($1200 by the time my travel expenses are taken into account). Its an UpRev dyno tune and I have the option of up to five maps selectable by cruise control. I doesn't sound like there is any hardware included (Osiris?) or the OS software (Cipher?) just the modified MAP. Its about $400 for the dyno time and around $500 for the software mod. I agree reverse engineering the software and coding your own OS for the ECU is impressive and should be charged for - but $300 per license for an ukernal operating system seems awefully steep. Now to interface to that software you have to spend another $400 for the Osiris software? Is Osiris useless without Cipher? Granted you get three E-Tunes but what percentage accurate is that in comparison to a dyno tune - that will give us a good idea of the value of the product in comparison to just getting you MAP done with a dyno tune.... So it sounds like a dyno tune with the UpRev system doesn't get me anything other than an optimized MAP specifically for my car - no hardware - no custom OS for $1200. That seems steep to me but I don't know what every one else is being charged - anyone - Beuler? __________________ '09 370Z - '93 300ZX Vert - '83 280ZX - '83 280ZXT -'81 280ZXT stroker - '72 240Z - Stillen CBE, HFC, G3, Grounding Kit, Sways // Swift Spring // H&R 15mm // 5% Tint // Clear Bra //

07-09-2009, 10:43 PM	#84 (permalink)
Sharif@Forged The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Marietta, GA Posts: 840 Drives: 2009 GT-R, 2010 370Z Rep Power: 17	^^I said "one" of the few^^ Welcome. __________________ Sharif@Forgedperformance.com General Manager/Certified Tuner/NASA-PCA-BMWCAA Instructor JRZ RS1's Available NOW...PM me Cobb ProTuner, Uprev ECU Flash, FCON Vpro, Haltech, Motec Certified

07-10-2009, 09:06 AM	#85 (permalink)
semtex A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Behind enemy lines Age: 54 Posts: 5,995 Drives: People to drink Rep Power: 32	Can one of you guys elaborate on what the Real Time Tuning is, and what its benefits are? __________________ "There are no small accidents on this circuit." -- Ayrton Senna 316.8whp & 248 ft/lbs (Dyno Dynamics) \| 319whp & 256 ft/lbs (DynoJet) (04/23/10) Stillen G3 CAI, CBE, Pulley / F.I. LTH / GTSpec Ladder Brace / Setrab Oil Cooler / UpRev-tuned by Forged Perf.

07-10-2009, 10:06 AM	#86 (permalink)
westpak Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lake Worth, FL Posts: 405 Drives: 2003 350Z DB Rep Power: 16	Real Time Tuning (RTT) allows you to select some parameters that will be modifed in real time as you make the run on the dyno, as opposed to the normal way of doing the run then analyzing the results and making changes and then reruning the car to see the effect of your changes. __________________ 03 350Z 587 RWHP - May 2009 Dsport Feature

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07-10-2009, 01:37 PM	#90 (permalink)
t-ray Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: bham al Posts: 91 Drives: 05 g sedan 6mt Rep Power: 16	One thing that I would like to point out is street tuning. I don't know about the cobb unit, but with something like Osiris(end-user tuning option)+Cipher, one has all the tools necessary to make the ultimate street tune. After all, even the most sophisticated dyno is nothing but an approximation. With something like Cipher, one can log with ultra high precision how long it takes to accelerate between two given speeds in a given gear. Make some adjustments, and make another run. The cipher logs should be precise to the ~10 millisecond level. I don't know what the logging capabilities are of the AP unit.