stillen intakes and fast intentions cbe tune?

DEpointfive0 · 10-23-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcosta79

That's crazy. Something's not right.

I got 23 RWHP from my tune and that's after a baseline dyno with my mods installed. Same day, etc...

Are you saying you installed your mods, then did a baseline run, then tuned it?

The stock ECU needs time to acclimate to the changes and to change the A/F ratio by itself

DEpointfive0 · 10-23-2012, 12:47 PM

Again, it's different strokes for different folks, for me I would like a tune so I can program a valet tune, and a few other tunes... And I see a 50/50 with people making big gains and those who don't... Most who get great gains tune it right after they install new parts
My biggest issue with the tune is that your engine warranty says bye bye... And in some cases your transmission too because if that has a catastrophic failure the dealer will say, you put too much power down by tuning the car outside factory specs (Yes, that's complete bull, but unless you have million dollar lawyers, too much time, and too much money to burn on going to court... Nissan has your balls in the palm of their hand... They'll just say no)

jcosta79 · 10-23-2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEpointfive0

Are you saying you installed your mods, then did a baseline run, then tuned it?

The stock ECU needs time to acclimate to the changes and to change the A/F ratio by itself

So you're saying you should install mods and then tune some time in the future?

DEpointfive0 · 10-23-2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcosta79

So you're saying you should install mods and then tune some time in the future?

No, just saying if you install your parts then let the ECU balance itself out, I think the dyno will show less gains...

I think people underestimate the stock ECU's brain...

wstar · 10-23-2012, 03:24 PM

^ That. The stock ECU is actually quite adaptable, given a little time. There are plenty of other benefits to sticking UpRev on the car (being able to set better A:F targets in some ranges for your setup, adjust cooling fans, idle RPM, play with 7AT torque map, throttle map, valet/security modes, etc, etc). But as far as the very basics that dyno tuners are after (hitting A:F targets and getting timing right), you have to get pretty crazy with bolt-on breathing mods before the ECU fails to adapt on its own, IMHO.

I'm at the outer edge of simple bolt-ons with FI's LTH+CBE, the Motordyne manifold, and Stillen G3's. The car actually runs great in terms of timing and fueling on the stock ECU. It's nice to tweak the AF targets a bit to save gas at idle and provide some extra safety margin under load (none of which really requires a dyno), and the tuning did pick up a tiny percentage of power, but it's all well within the boundaries of unknowns to due to ECU learning curve and random environmental fluctuations. I know the dyno shops would hate me for saying so, but I really don't think a dyno tune is absolutely required on this car for NA bolt-ons. If someone secretly swapped out my tuned map for a stock one, I'd probably never have noticed in the long run.

jcosta79 · 10-23-2012, 04:36 PM

But the stock ECU is only going to adjust for A/F ratio, correct? Or does it do timing as well?

Also, a tune gets rid of throttle pedal delay, raises the rev limit to 8K and removes the top speed governor.

DEpointfive0 · 10-23-2012, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcosta79

But the stock ECU is only going to adjust for A/F ratio, correct? Or does it do timing as well?

Also, a tune gets rid of throttle pedal delay, raises the rev limit to 8K and removes the top speed governor.

I agree with the pedal delay and you can raise the limit to 8k, but I don't think you make a lot more power... And how often are you going past 168? LOL

And I'm not 100% an expert on timing, but, if it can pull timing because your oil or coolant gets hot, wouldn't it be plausible that it can advance timing too?
And if it didn't adjust timing wouldn't you get knock, or backfire, or afterfire?

jcosta79 · 10-24-2012, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEpointfive0

I agree with the pedal delay and you can raise the limit to 8k, but I don't think you make a lot more power... And how often are you going past 168? LOL

You may not make that much more PEAK power, but lower in the rev range you are picking up quite a bit of torque. Your throttle blades are opening up more and allowing more air into the engine. The torque curve on my dyno sheet looks very much like it did after the mods were put on, it just moved up higher about 10% on the page.

DEpointfive0 · 10-24-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcosta79

You may not make that much more PEAK power, but lower in the rev range you are picking up quite a bit of torque. Your throttle blades are opening up more and allowing more air into the engine. The torque curve on my dyno sheet looks very much like it did after the mods were put on, it just moved up higher about 10% on the page.

Fair enough, I would move my peak RPM to 8k just so my engine would break faster, but I will lose the warranty, lol...

Again, whatever floats your boat brother! Enjoy your car!

luigi90210 · 10-24-2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEpointfive0

It depends how much you like your warranty... As much as everyone says you can reset your tune to a factory tune... I you go in with a blown motor and go... Yeah, it just blew... They're going to sit at corporate while you car is plugged into the dealer's computer and look at all the info on your ECU and go fuckin hell, why was the ECU JUST RESET??? And you'll be out $4-8k on an engine...

Your ECU is AMAZING at figuring a tune out... If you leave your mods on for long enough a tune will get you 5-7hp and 10 pounds of tq MAYBE...

The last person I know who got a tune had G3's HFC's, and CBE, the tune have him 4hp and 7ft lbs of tq... Not worth the $700 IMO with your warranty void

why are you spreading false info?

the magnuson-moss warranty act states that the manufacture has to prove your modification caused the defect, if you go in with a blown motor and there isnt a problem with the tune(after extensive testing via dealer) they have to fix your engine under warranty, they cant just void it all together but they can deny a warranty claim if your modification did cause a defect

if i install an aftermarket radio and suddenly my speakers arnt working, ya my modification caused the defect but if i installed an aftermarket radio, and my glove box handle broke, they still have to fix my glove box under warranty unless proven otherwise(whether it is through misuse or my aftermarket radio)...

wstar · 10-24-2012, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcosta79

But the stock ECU is only going to adjust for A/F ratio, correct? Or does it do timing as well?

It does timing very dynamically. UpRev's own tuning guide notes that even if they manually set the timing way way off, after a few pulls the ECU corrects itself back to appropriate values.

Quote:

Also, a tune gets rid of throttle pedal delay

not necessarily in the best way, and highly dependent on who does the tune and how...

Quote:

raises the rev limit to 8K

You don't want to do that. 8K RPM on a stock motor will eventually grenade your oil pump gear and destroy most of the engine along with it, as talked about elsewhere on these forums

Quote:

and removes the top speed governor.

This, yes, it's part of the same settings where you put speed/rev limits per-map for e.g. security/valet modes. However, you can do this without a dyno, just a laptop and a tuner license. Not that there's really any sane place to hit 160 in this car anyways, other than a select few tracks with very very long straights.

jcosta79 · 10-25-2012, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

It does timing very dynamically. UpRev's own tuning guide notes that even if they manually set the timing way way off, after a few pulls the ECU corrects itself back to appropriate values.

not necessarily in the best way, and highly dependent on who does the tune and how...

You don't want to do that. 8K RPM on a stock motor will eventually grenade your oil pump gear and destroy most of the engine along with it, as talked about elsewhere on these forums

This, yes, it's part of the same settings where you put speed/rev limits per-map for e.g. security/valet modes. However, you can do this without a dyno, just a laptop and a tuner license. Not that there's really any sane place to hit 160 in this car anyways, other than a select few tracks with very very long straights.

Well, I don't get a CEL... is that worth anything?

DEpointfive0 · 10-25-2012, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luigi90210

why are you spreading false info?

the magnuson-moss warranty act states that the manufacture has to prove your modification caused the defect, if you go in with a blown motor and there isnt a problem with the tune(after extensive testing via dealer) they have to fix your engine under warranty, they cant just void it all together but they can deny a warranty claim if your modification did cause a defect

if i install an aftermarket radio and suddenly my speakers arnt working, ya my modification caused the defect but if i installed an aftermarket radio, and my glove box handle broke, they still have to fix my glove box under warranty unless proven otherwise(whether it is through misuse or my aftermarket radio)...

I am 100% aware of this, BUT, the information I spread is NOT false info... If you're saying your aftermarket radio controls your speakers, and if the speakers give out, YOUR modification caused caused the defect... The ECU controls the engine... Pushing it or modifying it outside of the factory specs, ANY tuning is considered "outside" the factory specs, because if the stock ECU notices anything it cannot correct by itself due to your mods, it will throw a CEL, kinda the reason behind a CEL...

When people ask what mods effect warranty I explain whatever you had to touch to install that mod, usually loses it's warranty (On intakes you'll usually lose the warranty on MAF sensors, on HFCs you'll lose the warranty on the O2 sensors)
No, you do not lose the warranty on the WHOLE car, I didn't say that, I just said at LEAST the engine... They can claim more parts are out of warranty (reason stated below) But yeah, you can have a different engine in your car, they'll still fix your window as long as you're under some type of warranty on that.
The only mod I know of that can't really effect your warranty in any way is a CBE (even though it kinda clashes with the other info I've posted below)

Also, the other beautiful advantage Nissan has, is that they can say, even on my car that has full breather mods, 'because my car has more horsepower than stock, I put extra stress and strain on the engine and transmission and anything really related to the drivetrain'. Now, if I have catastrophic failure, you best bet your arse that I'm reverting to stock, but when you revert your ECU back to stock, they WILL KNOW that. (Same with things like the MAF sensor, they can say I overworked it, or I overworked the O2 sensors or they got too fouled because the HFCs aren't as efficient as stock cats)

I do not mean to attack you, but since you're looking through my posts, on other threads as well, I am going to link that thread as well:
Be Careful with UpRev in Mass

And if a STATE can tell how many times you flashed your ECU and they won't pass your car for inspection, what makes you think corporate, who has to shell out THOUSANDS of dollars, won't do the same, and deny a warranty claim?

DEpointfive0 · 10-25-2012, 03:23 PM

Oh, and I sent this message to luigi90210:
I have first hand experience with a car being declined as well for an engine replacement due to a tune, not from the dealer, but from a call from HQ...

And again, depending on who you know, shady things CAN be done, I know someone at my last dealer who no longer works there who "bought" a car from a customer who couldn't pay for repairs on his Murano... The owner of the car gave up the title in exchange for not being charged for diagnostics... It had oil consumption/very low compression, engine blown... He paid for the diagnostic repairs out of pocket like $1200, then filed a claim under a previous date and mileage saying the engine was blown, corporate sent out a short block, and once the old short block was inspected, the dealer got reimbursed for the block

wstar · 10-25-2012, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEpointfive0

ANY tuning is considered "outside" the factory specs, because if the stock ECU notices anything it cannot correct by itself due to your mods, it will throw a CEL, kinda the reason behind a CEL...

In the real world though, the ECU does correct some things itself regardless (see above, it will correct poor timing set by a dyno tuner). It probably won't correct bad A:F targets, although I don't know if anyone's tried that to be sure. Either way, the burden of proof is still technically on the manufacturer to show that you caused the problem. If the car has a defective camshaft from the factory that's going to snap after 10,000 miles, tuning the ECU doesn't change a thing about that really. Driving habits will cause a far larger variance.

Sure, Nissan has more lawyer-power than you do, but you also have the dealership on your side if you choose the right one. They're more interested in maintaining long-term customer relationships, and will spend the time to investigate what really caused the problem and whether they should push things in the direction of Nissan paying up or not. I haven't yet heard of a legitimate case (with any mfg) where ECU tuning caused someone to lose on the warranty when a mechanical manufacturing problem was clearly at fault. I'm sure if you dig around you might find a few, but you can find a few of anything on the internet, and those people just may not have understood how to work the system in their favor.

10-23-2012, 03:24 PM	#20 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	^ That. The stock ECU is actually quite adaptable, given a little time. There are plenty of other benefits to sticking UpRev on the car (being able to set better A:F targets in some ranges for your setup, adjust cooling fans, idle RPM, play with 7AT torque map, throttle map, valet/security modes, etc, etc). But as far as the very basics that dyno tuners are after (hitting A:F targets and getting timing right), you have to get pretty crazy with bolt-on breathing mods before the ECU fails to adapt on its own, IMHO. I'm at the outer edge of simple bolt-ons with FI's LTH+CBE, the Motordyne manifold, and Stillen G3's. The car actually runs great in terms of timing and fueling on the stock ECU. It's nice to tweak the AF targets a bit to save gas at idle and provide some extra safety margin under load (none of which really requires a dyno), and the tuning did pick up a tiny percentage of power, but it's all well within the boundaries of unknowns to due to ECU learning curve and random environmental fluctuations. I know the dyno shops would hate me for saying so, but I really don't think a dyno tune is absolutely required on this car for NA bolt-ons. If someone secretly swapped out my tuned map for a stock one, I'd probably never have noticed in the long run. DEpointfive0 likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

10-23-2012, 04:36 PM	#21 (permalink)
jcosta79 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: N/A Posts: 1,430 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 15	But the stock ECU is only going to adjust for A/F ratio, correct? Or does it do timing as well? Also, a tune gets rid of throttle pedal delay, raises the rev limit to 8K and removes the top speed governor. DEpointfive0 likes this. __________________ 2012 PW NISMO #0559 - GT Spec Brace Kit - Swift Springs - ARK TP & Invidia CBE K&N Intake - UpRev Tune - 15mm Z1 Spacers & Studs - StopTech Slotted Rotors & SS Lines - ZSpeed CMAK with Stage 2 Clutch and Lightweight Flywheel

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10-23-2012, 12:47 PM	#17 (permalink)
DEpointfive0 Premium Member Bitches Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SoCal Posts: 14,824 Drives: a lot Rep Power: 17151	Again, it's different strokes for different folks, for me I would like a tune so I can program a valet tune, and a few other tunes... And I see a 50/50 with people making big gains and those who don't... Most who get great gains tune it right after they install new parts My biggest issue with the tune is that your engine warranty says bye bye... And in some cases your transmission too because if that has a catastrophic failure the dealer will say, you put too much power down by tuning the car outside factory specs (Yes, that's complete bull, but unless you have million dollar lawyers, too much time, and too much money to burn on going to court... Nissan has your balls in the palm of their hand... They'll just say no)

10-25-2012, 03:23 PM	#29 (permalink)
DEpointfive0 Premium Member Bitches Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SoCal Posts: 14,824 Drives: a lot Rep Power: 17151	Oh, and I sent this message to luigi90210: I have first hand experience with a car being declined as well for an engine replacement due to a tune, not from the dealer, but from a call from HQ... And again, depending on who you know, shady things CAN be done, I know someone at my last dealer who no longer works there who "bought" a car from a customer who couldn't pay for repairs on his Murano... The owner of the car gave up the title in exchange for not being charged for diagnostics... It had oil consumption/very low compression, engine blown... He paid for the diagnostic repairs out of pocket like $1200, then filed a claim under a previous date and mileage saying the engine was blown, corporate sent out a short block, and once the old short block was inspected, the dealer got reimbursed for the block