Smooth Throttle for UpRev

wstar · 06-17-2013, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh0velMan

Really is too bad you have automatics.. could just ditch ETC completely..

Yeah but then you can't do the good re-shaping of the pedal response. Unless you did it mechanically somehow (e.g. progressive spring behind the pedal?)

Sh0velMan · 06-17-2013, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Yeah but then you can't do the good re-shaping of the pedal response. Unless you did it mechanically somehow (e.g. progressive spring behind the pedal?)

I mean, one to one is preferable for me, so I like ETC off.

wstar · 06-18-2013, 12:10 PM

One-to-one is certainly better than the stock ETC. What I'm saying, though, is: if you had a true throttle cable (as opposed to ETC Off, which tries to simulate a physical throttle cable), you'd still want to change the cam(s) at the intake butterflies to re-shape the pedal response to be more optimal for track use. With just ETC Off you get no possibility for that kind of adjustment.

I went ahead and scanned from the book that got me thinking about this. Pg 36 of "Think Fast" by Neil Roberts, which illustrates what I'm trying to say:

Sh0velMan · 06-18-2013, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

One-to-one is certainly better than the stock ETC. What I'm saying, though, is: if you had a true throttle cable (as opposed to ETC Off, which tries to simulate a physical throttle cable), you'd still want to change the cam(s) at the intake butterflies to re-shape the pedal response to be more optimal for track use. With just ETC Off you get no possibility for that kind of adjustment.

I went ahead and scanned from the book that got me thinking about this. Pg 36 of "Think Fast" by Neil Roberts, which illustrates what I'm trying to say:

GOTCHYA.

Well, have we confirmed that ETC OFF is in fact 1 to 1? I've assumed that it is, but I don't know for certain. Have you ever mapped ACC POS vs TPS? I suppose I could try and log it myself.

wstar · 06-18-2013, 03:14 PM

Well, we have no idea what happens with ETC Off, really. I mean, we know it disables all the wild throttle interference from things like VDC and SRM and Torque Management, and more-or-less opens the virtual butterflies as commanded by the pedal. I don't think anyone's experimented to see if the ECU's throttle table still affects that pedal->throttle mapping at all in some way, or it falls back on some fixed values (I bet fixed, though), or what those fixed values might be.

Sh0velMan · 06-18-2013, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Well, we have no idea what happens with ETC Off, really. I mean, we know it disables all the wild throttle interference from things like VDC and SRM and Torque Management, and more-or-less opens the virtual butterflies as commanded by the pedal. I don't think anyone's experimented to see if the ECU's throttle table still affects that pedal->throttle mapping at all in some way, or it falls back on some fixed values (I bet fixed, though), or what those fixed values might be.

It uses fixed values for sure. What we haven't determined yet apparently is what those values are.

So if I put the car to 'On' and sweep the accelerator through fully closed and fully opened slowly, while logging accelerator position and throttle position, I should be able to make a graph in excel showing them in relation to each other.

wstar · 06-18-2013, 03:34 PM

Yeah, if you go back and re-read the first post in this thread, you can see what I did to log the data. I basically swept through the pedal starting at low RPMs in something like 3rd gear while logging data in Cipher, and then graphed that. Because your foot's movement rate isn't consistent, you don't want to graph the values versus time, but instead versus each other (e.g. my graph of TPS mV vs Accel Pedal Pos). It still won't be perfect, but it'll give you an idea what's going on.

Sh0velMan · 06-18-2013, 03:57 PM

Yeah, it's necessary to do that with the normal map most likely, since it factors load (I think?) and RPM (so the engine needs to be running with the vehicle in motion).

Without the table being used, you don't need to have the engine running, I wouldn't think. I know with the ignition set to 'On' you can hear the throttles open and close just fine.

wstar · 06-18-2013, 05:23 PM

I don't think the physical throttles are the end of it, though. VVEL is part of the throttling on this engine, and probably isn't active unless it's running. Even with ETC off, this still has to be the case. ETC Off is only giving you a "virtual" direct throttle, not a real one

esfourteen · 06-24-2013, 07:16 PM

Wanted to share my experience so people are aware, I just had my car retuned on 1050cc ASNU injectors, when he was finished I asked him to load a map that Baer383 posted a few pages back to try it out.

Long story short for whatever reason the uprev black magic tables that the throttle maps alter must be affected by values in other maps because this had the effect of virtually no throttle under 4k rpm. The car barely moved and had 0.0 boost until 4k, then boost immediately jumped, so I'm assuming the intake valves were nearly closed with my foot the floor.

Seriously cant wait for ecutek...

Baer383 · 06-24-2013, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esfourteen

Wanted to share my experience so people are aware, I just had my car retuned on 1050cc ASNU injectors, when he was finished I asked him to load a map that Baer383 posted a few pages back to try it out.

Long story short for whatever reason the uprev black magic tables that the throttle maps alter must be affected by values in other maps because this had the effect of virtually no throttle under 4k rpm. The car barely moved and had 0.0 boost until 4k, then boost immediately jumped, so I'm assuming the intake valves were nearly closed with my foot the floor.

Seriously cant wait for ecutek...

That sucks,

I've had some bs with Uprev but for one reason or another I got it fixed.
To bad you couldn't try it.

Baer383 · 07-03-2013, 08:59 PM

For those of you who are doing or trying a throttle map let it be known that after I updated my ROM editor Uprev added 1 more row meaning that my old throttle map only went to 6800 rpm after the update it now goes to 7200 rpm leaving a row on the map (7200)that is not adjusted right so at high RPM it kind of falls on it's face and on high RPM decel it is rough.

Just thought I'd tell you my findings.

wstar · 07-03-2013, 10:39 PM

Nice catch! I didn't even look at the throttle table when I updated+reflashed about a month ago, but didn't notice any issues, either.

Baer383 · 07-04-2013, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Nice catch! I didn't even look at the throttle table when I updated+reflashed about a month ago, but didn't notice any issues, either.

A month ago you still would only have 15 rows ending in 6800 RPM so you won't have any problems but once you run the 'updater program' then you get 16 rows ending in 7200 RPM.

esfourteen · 07-04-2013, 01:58 AM

for anyone curious, heres some first gear throttle lag goodness, warm engine, stock throttle map

logged some 1st gear throttle lag

06-18-2013, 12:10 PM	#183 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	One-to-one is certainly better than the stock ETC. What I'm saying, though, is: if you had a true throttle cable (as opposed to ETC Off, which tries to simulate a physical throttle cable), you'd still want to change the cam(s) at the intake butterflies to re-shape the pedal response to be more optimal for track use. With just ETC Off you get no possibility for that kind of adjustment. I went ahead and scanned from the book that got me thinking about this. Pg 36 of "Think Fast" by Neil Roberts, which illustrates what I'm trying to say: __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

06-18-2013, 03:14 PM	#185 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Well, we have no idea what happens with ETC Off, really. I mean, we know it disables all the wild throttle interference from things like VDC and SRM and Torque Management, and more-or-less opens the virtual butterflies as commanded by the pedal. I don't think anyone's experimented to see if the ECU's throttle table still affects that pedal->throttle mapping at all in some way, or it falls back on some fixed values (I bet fixed, though), or what those fixed values might be. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

06-18-2013, 03:34 PM	#187 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Yeah, if you go back and re-read the first post in this thread, you can see what I did to log the data. I basically swept through the pedal starting at low RPMs in something like 3rd gear while logging data in Cipher, and then graphed that. Because your foot's movement rate isn't consistent, you don't want to graph the values versus time, but instead versus each other (e.g. my graph of TPS mV vs Accel Pedal Pos). It still won't be perfect, but it'll give you an idea what's going on. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

06-18-2013, 03:57 PM	#188 (permalink)
Sh0velMan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth Posts: 3,349 Drives: Noisily. Rep Power: 20	Yeah, it's necessary to do that with the normal map most likely, since it factors load (I think?) and RPM (so the engine needs to be running with the vehicle in motion). Without the table being used, you don't need to have the engine running, I wouldn't think. I know with the ignition set to 'On' you can hear the throttles open and close just fine. __________________ Buy My Car! \| Build Thread

06-18-2013, 05:23 PM	#189 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	I don't think the physical throttles are the end of it, though. VVEL is part of the throttling on this engine, and probably isn't active unless it's running. Even with ETC off, this still has to be the case. ETC Off is only giving you a "virtual" direct throttle, not a real one Baer383 likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

06-24-2013, 07:16 PM	#190 (permalink)
esfourteen A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: LI, NY Posts: 1,375 Drives: 40th TT Rep Power: 18	Wanted to share my experience so people are aware, I just had my car retuned on 1050cc ASNU injectors, when he was finished I asked him to load a map that Baer383 posted a few pages back to try it out. Long story short for whatever reason the uprev black magic tables that the throttle maps alter must be affected by values in other maps because this had the effect of virtually no throttle under 4k rpm. The car barely moved and had 0.0 boost until 4k, then boost immediately jumped, so I'm assuming the intake valves were nearly closed with my foot the floor. Seriously cant wait for ecutek... __________________ Build Thread \| GTM TT Install Thread \| Engine Build Thread

07-03-2013, 08:59 PM	#192 (permalink)
Baer383 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lawrenceville,Ga Posts: 4,293 Drives: My foot up your azz Rep Power: 30	For those of you who are doing or trying a throttle map let it be known that after I updated my ROM editor Uprev added 1 more row meaning that my old throttle map only went to 6800 rpm after the update it now goes to 7200 rpm leaving a row on the map (7200)that is not adjusted right so at high RPM it kind of falls on it's face and on high RPM decel it is rough. Just thought I'd tell you my findings. SPOHN likes this. __________________ 2013 ZL1 754 rwhp 747 rwtq

07-03-2013, 10:39 PM	#193 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Nice catch! I didn't even look at the throttle table when I updated+reflashed about a month ago, but didn't notice any issues, either. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

07-04-2013, 01:58 AM	#195 (permalink)
esfourteen A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: LI, NY Posts: 1,375 Drives: 40th TT Rep Power: 18	for anyone curious, heres some first gear throttle lag goodness, warm engine, stock throttle map logged some 1st gear throttle lag __________________ Build Thread \| GTM TT Install Thread \| Engine Build Thread Last edited by esfourteen; 07-04-2013 at 11:49 AM.

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