Smooth Throttle for UpRev

slynx · 06-15-2013, 12:21 AM

I've been following this thread for a while and my mind has been blown. I've been driving around with ETC off and the throttle is definitely more responsive. The UpRev guide describes ETC off has adjusting the Throttle Control Map to linear. Since your graph in the first post shows that the 2300 curve delivers more response in the mid range, wouldn't this be a better feel than ETC off?

I've copied the 2300 curve of your's and Baer383's 2515 curve and can't wait to see how it feels compared to ETC off.

Baer383 · 06-15-2013, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slynx

I've been following this thread for a while and my mind has been blown. I've been driving around with ETC off and the throttle is definitely more responsive. The UpRev guide describes ETC off has adjusting the Throttle Control Map to linear. Since your graph in the first post shows that the 2300 curve delivers more response in the mid range, wouldn't this be a better feel than ETC off?

I've copied the 2300 curve of your's and Baer383's 2515 curve and can't wait to see how it feels compared to ETC off.

I now have a newer map that replaced the one shown above in my post that is alott better if you wish to try it let me know Ill pm it to you.

TVPostSound · 06-16-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baer383

I now have a newer map that replaced the one shown above in my post that is alott better if you wish to try it let me know Ill pm it to you.

Please PM your newer MAP.

I tried the post#145, its a little touchy a low speeds.

Baer383 · 06-16-2013, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

Please PM your newer MAP.

I tried the post#145, its a little touchy a low speeds.

I can pm you my newer map but it is very similar,I'm working on one now (as we speak) that will remove low RPM lag but not be too touchy off idle.

TVPostSound · 06-16-2013, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baer383

I can pm you my newer map but it is very similar,I'm working on one now (as we speak) that will remove low RPM lag but not be too touchy off idle.

Ill wait then!! Thanks!!

wstar · 06-15-2013, 07:45 AM

What are you using to judge "better"? I haven't tried any of your maps (or messed with mine) in a long time because I was happy with how mine felt. Lately I've been doing some reading on race tuning in general and it's gotten me thinking about throttle response again, and I'll likely start playing with this stuff again in the next month or two.

What I found in one of my books that makes sense was to setup the throttle with a "Rising rate", where the (smooth!) response curve is inverted dramatically from how my Curve2300 map looks. Basically you drag out the lower part of the power curve over a lot of pedal travel, and then ramp out to full throttle fairly quickly near the end. The reasoning behind this is that you tend to be at neutral/light throttle settings when you really need fine control, and this gives it to you under those conditions. My goal with the previous map was just smooth predictability throughout, but I can see how it would be better to favor making it easy to fine-tune throttle position with your foot in the low range, sacrificing some fine control out in the, say, 75%+ throttle area.

Baer383 · 06-15-2013, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

What are you using to judge "better"? I haven't tried any of your maps (or messed with mine) in a long time because I was happy with how mine felt. Lately I've been doing some reading on race tuning in general and it's gotten me thinking about throttle response again, and I'll likely start playing with this stuff again in the next month or two.

What I found in one of my books that makes sense was to setup the throttle with a "Rising rate", where the (smooth!) response curve is inverted dramatically from how my Curve2300 map looks. Basically you drag out the lower part of the power ocurve over a lot of pedal travel, and then ramp out to full throttle fairly quickly near the end. The reasoning behind this is that you tend to be at neutral/light throttle settings when you really need fine control, and this gives it to you under those conditions. My goal with the previous map was just smooth predictability throughout, but I can see how it would be better to favor making it easy to fine-tune throttle position with your foot in the low range, sacrificing some fine control out in the, say, 75%+ throttle area.

What I mean by better is "my map"
My map gets the throttle blades to start to open up very quickly to remove any lag in the low end off of idle my curve isn't much differant than yours just my throttle blades open up faster than yours.

wstar · 06-17-2013, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baer383

What I mean by better is "my map"
My map gets the throttle blades to start to open up very quickly to remove any lag in the low end off of idle my curve isn't much differant than yours just my throttle blades open up faster than yours.

Yeah I suspect once I start working on my new map, we'll be going in very different directions in most of the rev range. I want to get the throttle to move slow and gradual all in the lower range of the pedal even in the middle of the rev range.

Baer383 · 06-17-2013, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Yeah I suspect once I start working on my new map, we'll be going in very different directions in most of the rev range. I want to get the throttle to move slow and gradual all in the lower range of the pedal even in the middle of the rev range.

I'm playing around with that now but I've always liked a touchy gas pedal.

slynx · 06-15-2013, 08:21 AM

Yes pm me your new map please.

An inverse 2300 curve for racing makes sense because it'll be less touchy when trying to feather the throttle.

Baer383 · 06-15-2013, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slynx

An inverse 2300 curve for racing makes sense because it'll be less touchy when trying to feather the throttle.

Not really I tried my new map with a stock clutch and now a lighter 19 lb flywheel and I'm more happier with and it is easy to take off from a traffic light.

zguynate · 06-15-2013, 10:55 AM

Ill try it out. Could you PM it to me as well?

Baer383 · 06-15-2013, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonbreath

Ill try it out. Could you PM it to me as well?

pm sent

wstar · 06-17-2013, 01:20 PM

Well, it's tricky to even describe what we're talking about without 3-D models

The only real "problem" in the stock map is that the virtual throttle refuses to open fully at low RPMs even when you stomp the pedal to the floor. I think all of our maps attempt to address this to some greater or lesser degree. I don't think that's contrary to my upcoming goals. I still want a fully-depressed pedal to give me full throttle regardless of engine revs.

Separately, there's the issue of the *shape* of the curve as you roll through 0->full on the throttle pedal. What we see in UpRev's rows is the theoretical shape of that curve if engine RPM stayed constant as you pushed through the pedal, but in reality while driving the car you're always taking a diagonal line through the table (because the engine is revving up as you're pressing the pedal down further). Alternatively, what we see in UpRev's columns of data is what happens if you maintain a constant pedal position which accelerates all the way to redline (although for most shallow pedal positions in reasonable gears, the engine will stop accelerating before it reaches the redline, unless you give more pedal moving to a different column).

Or something like that.

My Curve2300 graph gave the full throttle value at low RPMs (or seems to for me anyways, but you're saying yours does a better job) and for the shape part I just made it a smooth curve that pushes out to the upper left in the middle a bit, when viewed across a single row of data (but the rows are fairly well matched).

What I want to shoot for now is the opposite curve shape: having the curve dented inwards in the middle. Basically this makes the lower 1/2 of the pedal intentionally not-touchy, so that you have better fine control of near-neutral throttle in corners. As a result you lose some sensitivity in the upper part - once you get past a certain point it's going to ramp out to full throttle fairly quickly.

In general though, this is all just a feel thing. You can change the shape of these curves just as easily by modifying how you work your foot instead of modifying the throttle table itself. Want touchy? Push your foot down faster. Want smooth? Move your foot slower. But given our throttle is digital and very touchy in the low range as it is, I'd rather mechanically slow it down in that low range so that my foot has a little more room for error when trying to find pedal sweet spots for traction when transitioning back off the brakes.

Sh0velMan · 06-17-2013, 01:25 PM

Really is too bad you have automatics.. could just ditch ETC completely..

06-15-2013, 07:45 AM	#6 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	What are you using to judge "better"? I haven't tried any of your maps (or messed with mine) in a long time because I was happy with how mine felt. Lately I've been doing some reading on race tuning in general and it's gotten me thinking about throttle response again, and I'll likely start playing with this stuff again in the next month or two. What I found in one of my books that makes sense was to setup the throttle with a "Rising rate", where the (smooth!) response curve is inverted dramatically from how my Curve2300 map looks. Basically you drag out the lower part of the power curve over a lot of pedal travel, and then ramp out to full throttle fairly quickly near the end. The reasoning behind this is that you tend to be at neutral/light throttle settings when you really need fine control, and this gives it to you under those conditions. My goal with the previous map was just smooth predictability throughout, but I can see how it would be better to favor making it easy to fine-tune throttle position with your foot in the low range, sacrificing some fine control out in the, say, 75%+ throttle area. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

06-15-2013, 10:55 AM	#12 (permalink)
zguynate A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Strangeland Posts: 1,054 Drives: 09 370z Rep Power: 74	Ill try it out. Could you PM it to me as well? __________________ 2009 370z touring w/sports package

06-17-2013, 01:20 PM	#14 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Well, it's tricky to even describe what we're talking about without 3-D models The only real "problem" in the stock map is that the virtual throttle refuses to open fully at low RPMs even when you stomp the pedal to the floor. I think all of our maps attempt to address this to some greater or lesser degree. I don't think that's contrary to my upcoming goals. I still want a fully-depressed pedal to give me full throttle regardless of engine revs. Separately, there's the issue of the shape of the curve as you roll through 0->full on the throttle pedal. What we see in UpRev's rows is the theoretical shape of that curve if engine RPM stayed constant as you pushed through the pedal, but in reality while driving the car you're always taking a diagonal line through the table (because the engine is revving up as you're pressing the pedal down further). Alternatively, what we see in UpRev's columns of data is what happens if you maintain a constant pedal position which accelerates all the way to redline (although for most shallow pedal positions in reasonable gears, the engine will stop accelerating before it reaches the redline, unless you give more pedal moving to a different column). Or something like that. My Curve2300 graph gave the full throttle value at low RPMs (or seems to for me anyways, but you're saying yours does a better job) and for the shape part I just made it a smooth curve that pushes out to the upper left in the middle a bit, when viewed across a single row of data (but the rows are fairly well matched). What I want to shoot for now is the opposite curve shape: having the curve dented inwards in the middle. Basically this makes the lower 1/2 of the pedal intentionally not-touchy, so that you have better fine control of near-neutral throttle in corners. As a result you lose some sensitivity in the upper part - once you get past a certain point it's going to ramp out to full throttle fairly quickly. In general though, this is all just a feel thing. You can change the shape of these curves just as easily by modifying how you work your foot instead of modifying the throttle table itself. Want touchy? Push your foot down faster. Want smooth? Move your foot slower. But given our throttle is digital and very touchy in the low range as it is, I'd rather mechanically slow it down in that low range so that my foot has a little more room for error when trying to find pedal sweet spots for traction when transitioning back off the brakes. ValidusVentus likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

06-17-2013, 01:25 PM	#15 (permalink)
Sh0velMan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth Posts: 3,349 Drives: Noisily. Rep Power: 21	Really is too bad you have automatics.. could just ditch ETC completely.. __________________ Buy My Car! \| Build Thread

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06-15-2013, 12:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
slynx Base Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 25 Drives: 370z 12 S 6MT Rep Power: 16	I've been following this thread for a while and my mind has been blown. I've been driving around with ETC off and the throttle is definitely more responsive. The UpRev guide describes ETC off has adjusting the Throttle Control Map to linear. Since your graph in the first post shows that the 2300 curve delivers more response in the mid range, wouldn't this be a better feel than ETC off? I've copied the 2300 curve of your's and Baer383's 2515 curve and can't wait to see how it feels compared to ETC off.

06-15-2013, 08:21 AM	#10 (permalink)
slynx Base Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 25 Drives: 370z 12 S 6MT Rep Power: 16	Yes pm me your new map please. An inverse 2300 curve for racing makes sense because it'll be less touchy when trying to feather the throttle.