Smooth Throttle for UpRev

wstar · 10-16-2011, 10:30 AM

Top post updated with new results, and a new, better map. Read that post for all the updates...

cdoxp800 · 10-16-2011, 11:10 AM

Impressive work wstar

Zat_Zuma · 10-16-2011, 12:02 PM

Excellent work ......repped

N8GTOL · 10-16-2011, 12:34 PM

Nice write-up

DIGItonium · 10-16-2011, 06:17 PM

Great work! I'd love to see some videos. No wonder I had issues getting boost to build up at times especially when starting out at very low revs, and it takes forever to rev up to redline in 2nd as if the throttle is barely opening up.

I'm sure you've given tuners a great starting point.

Even though I can't edit the ROM on my own, perhaps Sam can take a look at this and send me a new flash. Maybe I can keep the standard response for daily driving and this one can be the "sport" map.

wstar · 10-16-2011, 07:11 PM

Well, even the "naive" approach will open that up for you, supposedly. The point of this exercise is to get that benefit while retaining a smooth, predictable response. I imagine some people will actually feel like their car is slower on my map, because in theory it should smooth the acceleration curve, resulting in less Jerk and/or Jounce which, I believe, is what leads people to believe the car has a very "snappy" throttle response based on Seat-of-the-Pants. I prefer predictability.

I have some more datalogging to do to back this up, and to make some estimation about how the 3800's concept helps low RPM driving force in general (smoothed out or not).

My plan for those charts is to log basically just rpm-vs-time (plus a few other parameters for my own validation) as an accurate vehicle speed metric, do it for a 2nd gear pull flooring the pedal from 1500 RPM on a few different maps (assuming I can do that without wheelspin, otherwise I'll go to 3rd again), and then derive accel -> jerk -> jounce data from that, or at least to whatever practical limit there is in the data.

wstar · 10-16-2011, 09:15 PM

I did some data logs between the good curve and the stock map on raw acceleration with a stomped full throttle from 2k -> top in 2nd gear, and to be honest at first glance the difference isn't huge.

Of course this isn't engine tuning, this is throttle tuning, we don't expect to make the engine accelerate any faster in most of the range. What I expected was a notable difference in the acceleration in the low RPM range though, basically from allowing the virtual pedal to fully open like the real pedal did, and what I found was a relatively small one (in the right direction). Subjectively, the effect seemed a lot more noticeable though. For the short time window that matters we don't have a ton of sample points either, and there is a tiny bit of sensor -> cipher lag as well. All of that could be dampening the results.

Don't have time to run the numbers on the numbers, but I'll do that later and make some graphs.

wstar · 10-17-2011, 09:46 AM

Well, for now I'll stick by my subjective impression (which was fairly strong) that UpRev and the tuners are right: maps with a solid column (or more) of 3800 values at the end do get on the throttle quicker at lower RPMs when you stomp the pedal all the way.

The MPH and RPM data via Cipher simply isn't good enough to infer g's of accel at the fine scale needed to tell the difference between the stock and non-stock maps at low RPMs in the scenario above, and adding to the error is my inability to get the graph start points lined up precisely (same starting pedal pos + rpm, leading to same timestamp for first full-throttle sample).

I'll post up this chart here anyways so you can see what the data looks like, but the bottom line to me is "too noisy and inaccurate to tell anything from". MAP4 is stock, MAP3 is one of the 3800 maps (the 2300 one in this case, not that it matters which at full throttle):

DIGItonium · 10-17-2011, 01:44 PM

Have you driven a DE/HR car lately? I wonder if you can get your impressions with those cars in comparison to your map.

So how's daily driving coming along?

wstar · 10-17-2011, 02:40 PM

No, I've never driven the DE or HR motors. Daily driving on the "curve 2300" map is great, but so was the "curve 2700" as long as you didn't go full throttle, and the original "linear" was pretty decent as well, although it seemed a little snappy or sensitive in the upper parts. Really even the stock map is reasonable too, so long as you're always at say ~3.5K+ RPM. The tuner map was kinda awful though, lots of odd unpredictability at partial throttle.

Sorry I haven't posted a video. I actually have a good setup for shooting video out the front windshield (which I used for this), but not for recording my dash dials while driving. I'll take some video on stock vs curve2300 sometime this week though, using aLapRecorder and virtual gauge overlays for RPM and TPS, like I did for the track stuff. I just need to get it all set up again after (yet again) updating my beta android firmware.

DIGItonium · 10-17-2011, 07:25 PM

Hmm... wonder if Sam@GTM would be willing to load your tables in one of the slots. I'd be happy to test it out for you. However, I'd be curious about the difference in the stock tables for 7AT versus 6MT.

I can keep the stock table for normal or wet weather driving, and then switch over to a snappier setup on dry days.

Ron · 10-17-2011, 07:31 PM

Digi with the version of uprev that you have do you have access to at least look at the tables? You can compare your table to the wstar's stock table on the OP. I'd too be interested to know if they are same.

wstar · 10-17-2011, 07:41 PM

Basically unless he gets a Tuner license for that cable, no, he can't see the tables.

zguynate · 02-24-2012, 01:20 AM

Any updates on this? What has your adjustments done for throttle response as well?

Jordo! · 02-24-2012, 01:29 AM

The stock map mirrors the stock power curve, right down to the drop in power before fuel cut and then the sudden spike.

The 2700 curve actually looks to be the best to me -- how does it feel compared the 2300 curve? Too jerky at upper range?

Did you try 2500?

10-16-2011, 10:30 AM	#46 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Top post updated with new results, and a new, better map. Read that post for all the updates... __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

10-16-2011, 11:10 AM	#47 (permalink)
cdoxp800 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2009 Location: FL Posts: 1,337 Drives: 2011 Nismo Rep Power: 19	Impressive work wstar __________________ 2011 Brilliant Silver NISMO 370z. #: 0046. PPE LTH \| MillSpec Cats \| F.I Exhaust \| Akuma Intakes \| Rotora 6/4 Brakes

10-16-2011, 12:02 PM	#48 (permalink)
Zat_Zuma A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Edmonton, Alberta ...eh Posts: 1,171 Drives: 2017 Touring auto Rep Power: 19	Excellent work ......repped __________________ [B]2009 & 2017 370Z Touring Sport Autos SOLD

10-16-2011, 06:17 PM	#50 (permalink)
DIGItonium A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 3,800 Drives: 09 Z34-TT 6MT Rep Power: 42	Great work! I'd love to see some videos. No wonder I had issues getting boost to build up at times especially when starting out at very low revs, and it takes forever to rev up to redline in 2nd as if the throttle is barely opening up. I'm sure you've given tuners a great starting point. Even though I can't edit the ROM on my own, perhaps Sam can take a look at this and send me a new flash. Maybe I can keep the standard response for daily driving and this one can be the "sport" map. __________________

10-16-2011, 07:11 PM	#51 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Well, even the "naive" approach will open that up for you, supposedly. The point of this exercise is to get that benefit while retaining a smooth, predictable response. I imagine some people will actually feel like their car is slower on my map, because in theory it should smooth the acceleration curve, resulting in less Jerk and/or Jounce which, I believe, is what leads people to believe the car has a very "snappy" throttle response based on Seat-of-the-Pants. I prefer predictability. I have some more datalogging to do to back this up, and to make some estimation about how the 3800's concept helps low RPM driving force in general (smoothed out or not). My plan for those charts is to log basically just rpm-vs-time (plus a few other parameters for my own validation) as an accurate vehicle speed metric, do it for a 2nd gear pull flooring the pedal from 1500 RPM on a few different maps (assuming I can do that without wheelspin, otherwise I'll go to 3rd again), and then derive accel -> jerk -> jounce data from that, or at least to whatever practical limit there is in the data. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

10-16-2011, 12:34 PM	#49 (permalink)
N8GTOL Base Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 228 Drives: and flies Rep Power: 22	Nice write-up

10-16-2011, 09:15 PM	#52 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	I did some data logs between the good curve and the stock map on raw acceleration with a stomped full throttle from 2k -> top in 2nd gear, and to be honest at first glance the difference isn't huge. Of course this isn't engine tuning, this is throttle tuning, we don't expect to make the engine accelerate any faster in most of the range. What I expected was a notable difference in the acceleration in the low RPM range though, basically from allowing the virtual pedal to fully open like the real pedal did, and what I found was a relatively small one (in the right direction). Subjectively, the effect seemed a lot more noticeable though. For the short time window that matters we don't have a ton of sample points either, and there is a tiny bit of sensor -> cipher lag as well. All of that could be dampening the results. Don't have time to run the numbers on the numbers, but I'll do that later and make some graphs. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

10-17-2011, 09:46 AM	#53 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Well, for now I'll stick by my subjective impression (which was fairly strong) that UpRev and the tuners are right: maps with a solid column (or more) of 3800 values at the end do get on the throttle quicker at lower RPMs when you stomp the pedal all the way. The MPH and RPM data via Cipher simply isn't good enough to infer g's of accel at the fine scale needed to tell the difference between the stock and non-stock maps at low RPMs in the scenario above, and adding to the error is my inability to get the graph start points lined up precisely (same starting pedal pos + rpm, leading to same timestamp for first full-throttle sample). I'll post up this chart here anyways so you can see what the data looks like, but the bottom line to me is "too noisy and inaccurate to tell anything from". MAP4 is stock, MAP3 is one of the 3800 maps (the 2300 one in this case, not that it matters which at full throttle): __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details Last edited by wstar; 10-17-2011 at 09:55 AM.

10-17-2011, 01:44 PM	#54 (permalink)
DIGItonium A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 3,800 Drives: 09 Z34-TT 6MT Rep Power: 42	Have you driven a DE/HR car lately? I wonder if you can get your impressions with those cars in comparison to your map. So how's daily driving coming along? __________________

10-17-2011, 02:40 PM	#55 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	No, I've never driven the DE or HR motors. Daily driving on the "curve 2300" map is great, but so was the "curve 2700" as long as you didn't go full throttle, and the original "linear" was pretty decent as well, although it seemed a little snappy or sensitive in the upper parts. Really even the stock map is reasonable too, so long as you're always at say ~3.5K+ RPM. The tuner map was kinda awful though, lots of odd unpredictability at partial throttle. Sorry I haven't posted a video. I actually have a good setup for shooting video out the front windshield (which I used for this), but not for recording my dash dials while driving. I'll take some video on stock vs curve2300 sometime this week though, using aLapRecorder and virtual gauge overlays for RPM and TPS, like I did for the track stuff. I just need to get it all set up again after (yet again) updating my beta android firmware. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

10-17-2011, 07:25 PM	#56 (permalink)
DIGItonium A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 3,800 Drives: 09 Z34-TT 6MT Rep Power: 42	Hmm... wonder if Sam@GTM would be willing to load your tables in one of the slots. I'd be happy to test it out for you. However, I'd be curious about the difference in the stock tables for 7AT versus 6MT. I can keep the stock table for normal or wet weather driving, and then switch over to a snappier setup on dry days. __________________

10-17-2011, 07:31 PM	#57 (permalink)
Ron A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 3,009 Drives: TT '11 PW Nismo #113 Rep Power: 22	Digi with the version of uprev that you have do you have access to at least look at the tables? You can compare your table to the wstar's stock table on the OP. I'd too be interested to know if they are same. Last edited by Ron; 10-17-2011 at 07:44 PM.

10-17-2011, 07:41 PM	#58 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Basically unless he gets a Tuner license for that cable, no, he can't see the tables. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

02-24-2012, 01:20 AM	#59 (permalink)
zguynate A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Strangeland Posts: 1,054 Drives: 09 370z Rep Power: 73	Any updates on this? What has your adjustments done for throttle response as well? __________________ 2009 370z touring w/sports package

02-24-2012, 01:29 AM	#60 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	The stock map mirrors the stock power curve, right down to the drop in power before fuel cut and then the sudden spike. The 2700 curve actually looks to be the best to me -- how does it feel compared the 2300 curve? Too jerky at upper range? Did you try 2500? __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it.

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