Experienced Haltech but New to UpRev

wayneosan

Hey guys, I am a lurker, but following along.

Don't think too hard. Remember back when there "wasn't" a good knock sensing device while tuning. (race cars, beaters etc.) You used the dyno to tell you what was going on.

Unclemeaty;
That little lesson you learned about loosing power is worth it's weight in gold.

A quick test, take away two degrees, make a pull. Do this GLOBALLY over the entire map to make it quick. Then add them back and make a pull. Don't forget you have two timing tables that need to be cohesive. Not the same, but cohesive.

That test will give you clues as to where you need timing and where you don't. If you don't loose power, pull 2 more degrees and do another pull.

I don't EVER tune timing on the street. IMO. But we have two dyno's so I can.
UPrev is the way to go.
Wayne

Unclemeaty

Its been a bit since I last updated, and boy I should have some info for this thread by now. Thanks to forum members, I've now gone about test/tuning a different way. Instead of jumping right to timing and correction maps, I've 'zeroed' ~%75 of the fuel consumption map to 100 points and kept my timing maps stock. I've also now re-callibrated AF target estimates for my stock WB to esentially be a reading lower than actually - I've focused my stock A/F targets with the stock sensors to 12.2:1 instead of 12.6:1 (In turn, the actual AF should probably be closer to 12.6:1). I'm still waiting on a friend to let me borrow his WB AF metter, so for the meantime I've gone with a target of 12.2:1 off the stock sensors. According to upRev, there are more than one style of stock WB sensor, so you best check the calibration for your own setup!

I left the timing map stock, fuel maps to 100, and worked the MAF map. In areas which were lean, I increased the values by the % of difference. I did this by suggestion of a forum member, and basically whatever the actual AF is, divide by the target to get the percentage in change required referenced by MAF voltage. (Taking actual AF and dividing by target AF gives the approx percentage needing change, then change it at the logged MAF voltage). After about ~10 runs of logging and flashing, I've come up with a great base for which the MAF adjustment allows the ECU to come within 97% of the target AF; all with keeping 75% of the fuel correction maps at 100.

The results are great so-far but I dont know if it made any power difference just yet, but I can say that the car was running over and under my target AFs. Its just about aas stable as I can get it for now.

The biggest thing I've found still is that after a few runs, likely the temperatures get too high (oil?) and the ECU starts retarding timing on me, from ~29 degrees advanced to ~24 at peak power. This issue needs some addressing.

Perhaps via an oil-cooler? I've started a new DIY inexpensive oil-cooler thread here, using a Napa/Hayden engine oil-cooler kit. I'm currently still evaluating a purchase for this, but if it works the savings could be substantial over a formal 370z specific aftermarket oil cooler kit.

Hayden / Napa / Summit oil cooler kit. Anyone?

Any other thoughts as to why ECU pulls timing after a few runs??

Megan370z

I'm glad that some of my experience with the MAF Table helped you to have a more stable fueling
Like I said it wouldn't give you power but just likely to stabilize the AFR curve.

as for the timing getting pull after a few run ,
you said you had 29 BTDC and going down to 24 after a few pull.

you are running stock timing map with probably a richer AFR ?
What come up in my head would be maybe
1= water temp ?
2=oil temp ?
3= quality of gas used ? (different brand aren't the same as we know it)
4= lean spot a little bit before your peak power ? which should be around 6850 rpm (stock)


having a good oil cooler help keeping temp down with those engine !
it is definitely helping !

Unclemeaty

Timing map is stock right now. I tried a timing map with numbers ~2 points lower and the car still retards after several runs.

1. Water temp is normal
2. Oil temp gets high. Seems higher than 210F and the car starts pulling timng at WOT.
3. Its 93 octane from Shell, laced with 15% ethanol. There is no better mix around, Chevron is more expensive but likely slightly better.
4. Perhaps. I'll have to comb through a few more logs to see, but in all I'd say timing is ~4 degrees retarded from 4500 rpm all the way up to redline.

I'm so close to getting this oil cooler. Since Summit is within 50 miles, Napa will likely price match.

Megan370z

I wouldnt worry about the timing getting pull from 4500-5500
I also tried many thing in that area but the timing always went down

thats probably an hidden map somewhere when the VVEL start going up at 4800rpm the timing goes down a little bit.

the only way I saw to not have the timing being pulled is when I run with a low timing value before 4500rpm , but that result give less power.

Im still waiting on the part for my Knock listening device to go deeper into that possible problem. if the ECU feel or not a knock/ping in that area

Megan370z

I wish I had a dyno eveytime I go out to do some street tuning
but I dont and doesnt have the money for it !

a nice way to be prepared for a dyno tuning is to bring the tune stable on the street and then get on the dyno to actualy fine-tune to make the power with more or less timing/afr

doing street tuning I was able to even get more power out from the previous dyno tune.
with some experience with the dyno and doing a street tuning properly can give a good result
but it can be a long process !!

serturbo

Have you ever looked into getting a Vbox to help with street tuning?

Megan370z

with the datalog that come with Uprev , I doubt I would need the Vbox

in what way could it help me ?

windex

This halfway off topic but I meant to show you guys this is how I work on my maps.

Megan370z

I would like to have something like that ! but having the small OEM Nav screen
I doubt the resolution would be any good

what are you using as a PC ?

windex

I got a Barebone Nettop from tiger direct for $110 and had a lot of computer parts laying around.

Unclemeaty

Did you guys see the new updates for RomEditor? Theres some new timing maps concerning timing and engine knock. Just update the UpRev software from your computer and you'll see. The new maps are Timing_Low_Det_Knock_Window and are pretty simple boolean style graphs. Im not 100% sure what they do other than the obvious - enable/disable the areas which are monitored for knock.

The stock map is not monitoring engine knock on the last three rows. This is interesting because if you've gone and changed your scale (default peak is 7200 rpm) then your knock window may need slight attention. Also, if you are concerned with your engine possibly knocking at those RPMs then you can probably turn on knock protection. ESPECIALLY for Forced induction modifiers; on the Timing_High_Det_Knock_Window map!

Also, in terms of engine performance vs oil temperature, theres a setting in DTC: PO196 - Engine Oil temperature Sensor Range/Performance. Im thinking I would like to try turning that one off - JUST TEMPORARILLY - to see if my engine stops retarding timing after several pulls. I realize the danger in not reducing engine power with higher oil temps, but I just wanted to test this out since I lose timing at ~220 degree oil temp. Thoughts?

Unclemeaty

I'm not saying to try this, but I've heard some Aftermarket audio head units run on Windows CE. If that is the case, they likely have USB and a harddrive for installing software. Someone should try UpRev on them if interested.

serturbo

It could give you real world performance numbers without having to go to the dyno.

wayneosan

"I wouldnt worry about the timing getting pull from 4500-5500
I also tried many thing in that area but the timing always went down

thats probably an hidden map somewhere when the VVEL start going up at 4800rpm the timing goes down a little bit."

I agree that there are more parameters not available for modification.



I have a question. You have two timing maps. IMO there is probably a setting that starts using more of the lower octane map when high oil temp is reached.
How far apart are your timing maps? Are they in sync with each other? In Mitsubishi software you can actually see the logged parameter % of lower octane fuel/timing maps it is using.

I am un-aware that you can monitor that in the Uprev software at this point, but hopefully in the future.

How about this; if you drive your car at 220 oil temps, then maybe "tune" your car at 220f temps, or why not just tune your car at normal temps and let the computer run less timing like the engineers decided was best?

If you tune on the street, you need to make sure before every single pull/ run or whatever, that your temps are ALL the same. It's a science; keep all the variables the same while testing, make one change at a time.

Anyway, just remember to have fun!

Wayne