Experienced Haltech but New to UpRev

Unclemeaty

Evening.

I've been in the Nissan game for only a few months and will say up-front I've never tuned a Z car before. I'm new to UpRev, but the software has a strickenly easy and familiar interface from what I am used to. I'm posting this up as myself to help learn a new system; to get positive responses so please dont flame with "Get it dyno tuned" or "You'll be sorry" responses. I wanted to start this thread because theres just not a whole lot of knowledge out there for the DIY tuner, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who paid the premium for the tuner edition licenses.

My previous experiance is with Turbo and NA Mazda RX7 Rotary engine vehicles. I've personally wired a few for standalone operation and have experience with Haltech e6 and e11 engine management systems. I've also built a 400+hp 1.3L Rotary vehicle tuned out of an Australian built Microtek standalone. I've sat in the passenger seat for dyno pulls and road tunes for the above plus PowerFC products. I've spent plenty of seat time staring at WB AF meters and tuning in real time to cars which should have never been street legal. I'm really what you call a road-tuner where in the RX7/Rotary game was very popular and important. For those who tuned RX7s, we'd often find road tuning a bit more important than dyno tuning. It was not always about the horsepower numbers, but the ultimate safety on the road. Dyno tuning is a real great tool, but often times we'd found differences in engine load versus natural airflow; something which does affect stationary dyno pulls to a small degree. Dyno tuning was important, but road tuning was even more important - RX7 Rotary engines are much taken by abuse from a few pings or detonation. New engines would litteraly blow themselves to pieces with any lean-out or over advancement. In RX7 world, the numbers to tune to were pretty easy and really well known by community and tuners - depending on the turbo size, boost, and power would determine your basic ignition timing needs, and then fuel to match would mainly be tuned into the equasion. Basically, a targetted ~350 rwhp rotary engine with a T04S boosting 17 PSI would run about 11 degrees timing advance and 11.2:1 AFR at full torque. That was then, and this is now. The 370z being a piston engine and NA is quite different from the nausiating fumes of a rotary.

Between them, there is not a whole lot of difference from what I can tell comparing a full-standalone product and UpRev. Thats obviously giving UpRev a lot of credit, as of course there are like 10x the maps in a full standalone. To me, the UpRev flash/product is an excelent alternative to full standalone without the worry of constantly having to tune an engine with full management. I'm a DIY'er and this is my daily driver so always having the laptop connected is not possible. The Stock ECU with what UpRev has provided is really a homogenous and appreciated dealing.

Mainly the basics of the UpRev provide us with Timing and Fuel curve adjustment. Theres a few other maps in relation to timing and fuel, and of course once I get a little more edumacated and modified the posibilities for much more power and tuning adjustment exist. Right now my car is STOCK, which is just perfect in my book for learning to get the tuning under control - before I modify.

Fuel:

The first thing I noticed on the fuel maps were the "Target" maps. I was like WOW! First, I was like... "wow I dont have to work that hard at hitting a target if the ECU will do it for me." Its a great safety net, but obviously the main-consumption and possibly other fuel maps might need some attention. My question in this area, is how do I tell if the ECU is trying to 'trim' itself to under or overcome whats set in the main-fuel consumption map? Like, if I tell the target fuel to be "12.5:1" and the main map is scheduling fuel at 11.5:1. The Target is 'triming' and trying pretty hard to close-loop correct the hard-set specifics. It would be nice if there was a logg-able percentage + or - that the trim/target maps are trying to correct from. What fuel ratios do you like to shoot for? 12? 12.5? 13?

Timing:

Nissan timing with UpRev is wierd. I actually had to read the instructions but I fully understand. The UpRev timing maps, if I'm not too far off, are target temperature targets for a factory set point ATDC. I understand the ECU tries to target that temperature by adjusting timing provided; providing that fuel is supplied at a metered ammount. I see how the fuel maps could actually interject themselves into the timing maps such that a rich fuel mixture would be cooler, requiring more timing advance; while a leaner mixture running hotter would require less timing advance. My question would again be related to information from log pulls rather than the timing 'temperature' maps themselves. With logging, I can see the actual timing advance, which I presume at this point is the actual BTDC timing in degrees. That is the figure I am used to; a set number BTDC. My question is what should, would, or could be the best number for a mainly stock NA 370z? Im currently seeing ~22 to ~26 logged in second gear from ~4500 - ~7500 rpms.

AIR:

Air is important. Air makes the power. The ammount of air going in/out of the engine added with fuel/timing makes the engine more or less powerful. Any engine is basically just a MASSIVE "air pump". That being said, its nice to see these cars have mass-Airflow sensors unlike previous speed-density RX7 tuning. Mass-Airflow meters can be logged and monitored. Modificaitons can change read values of the incoming air, but so can ignition and fuel maps. On a stock car, what can one expect to see measured at the mass airflow meter? I forget if UpRev measures in voltage or some calculated air density, but the more the better in my book. If nothing else, this number would represent the health and power-to-pull air into the engine. This number would represent the health and strength of an engine just the same as a dyno would - just without the dyno. It would almost always be better to get the maximum air you can into any engine and then tune that maximum to the safest degree. This is why we opt for bolt-ons and turbos. Its not really a tuneable figure, but some change in a tune can affect what the MAF sensor can read as what is being pulled into the engine. For instance, if the timing is retarded the engine would likely be a bit sluggish; causing the MAF to read a slightly lower value. An advanced/strong/tuned engine would likely pull in the most air possible. The MAF reading is more intriquiet for a turbo engine, but all the princibles are just the same for NA. In a healthy, stock, NA engine, what should the Mass-Air meter be reading?

Dyno:

At the begining AND end of the day, Dyno tuning is VERY important. Without it, you'd hardely be able to tell where you began much less where you end up. its very important, but for someone such as what I and others would possibly like to be doing with our cars, Dyno time and tuning is not always the right or affordable option. For me, Dyno before for baseline, during for tune success, and after tuning for final figures. In my experience every car is different and no tuner has the precise magic number; meaning even an E-Tune isnt going to be as rewarding as taking the actuall time to tune; which is not always affordable.

So I started this thread as a DIY'er, for the DIY'er. If you have any answers to my above questions that would benefit us all then by all means please share. Any self-tuners out there? I cant be the only one. Support the community, And please support your local tuner!

Megan370z

I would also like to see more people sharing their experience with the tuning of the 370z.

I'm myself new into the self-tuning ! Its been a year now that I have the Uprev Tuner kit.
I went many time on the dyno and I learned quite a lot every time about this engine and this damn ECU .
I found out that this ECU is very annoying to tune !
Its quite progressive and self-learning that even tuning it is not an easy job.



Just to give an idea , this is what I was running at the end of last summer with Shell V-power91

This is a very aggressive tune
its was just a guide (average) of many tune to set my tune up .. its not copy/paste from Uprev
RPM AFR1 AFR2 Timing
2500 12.5 12.5 18
3000 12.5 12.5 21
3500 12.5 12.5 21
4000 12.3 12.3 23
4500 12.3 12.3 24
5000 12.3 12,3 23
5500 12.3 12.3 23
6000 12.4 12.4 25
6500 12.4 12.4 26
6812 12.3 12.3 28 (peak power)
7000 12.3 12.3 29
7500 12.3 12.3 30


Something I would add is even stock, the MAF table could be fine tuned at WOT
I never really bordered about this in the past until I actually get my custom CAI w/ bigger MAF tube.

Megan370z

I remember while I had my whole intake system stock and full bolt on exhaust.
I was getting around 4.20-4.30 v @ 7500rpm on the MAF
the peak power were if I'm right .. about 4.10-4.15v @ 280whp (low reader Dyno)


with my new CAI w/ bigger MAF & TB , I'm getting 4.10-4.15v @7500rpm
and peak power around 3.96-4.05v @ 6800 = 299whp

Unclemeaty

Thats some great info. From what I've been looking at thus far, my timing seems to be approx 3-5 degrees less advanced than yours. Of course a CAI would help that out a bit by lowering intake temps enough to where the ECU can advance timing and hit the same temperature ATDC.

My MAF is matching your stock one thus far. I see ~4.15 at a peak from 6500-7300 rpms. That is indicated on the UpRev as 268.8 GM/S.

Check this out. Rough estimating now...

Divide gm/s by 7.5598 then multiply by 14.47 to get Airflow in CFM

268.8 gm/second = ~ 510 CFM

Using 510 CFM, I can then calculate the engine has approximately 340hp at the crank. Or I could have looked at the sticker at the dealership. LOL

To make it pretty simple, multiply CFM by .666 to get approximate HP.

To make it even simpler, multiple GM/S by 1.25 to get approximate HP at the flywheel.

For wheel horsepower, multiply GM/S by about 1.10 for 15% drivetrain loss to get approximate wheel horsepower.

From here, you can actually take the UpRev datalog CSV file and put it in Excel. From there, you take HP over RPM and place the converted GM/S data int a chart showing approximate horsepower over engine RPM (Kinda like a dyno sheet). I compared this chart with a base/stock dyno pull I did about a month ago and it is within +-5 HP for most of the range.

Now this is all asuming things about MAF and engine efficiency, but if you can raise the MAF value during your datalogs then you'll likely make a little more horsepower. About every .666 GM/S gives you ~1 BHP.

Unclemeaty

Stock Dyno:


*Note the dyno pull I did ended at 7600 RPM. The Datalog ended at about 7200 RPM. it makes the dyno sheet look a little wider/fatter thats all.

Stock UpRev Datalog with MAF GM/s to HP conversion:

Megan370z

What I dont like with Uprev , it does not give an higher number tha 268.8 gm/second even if the voltage keep getting higher.

I had 268 from around 6500 to 7500

Q8y_drifter

AFR is usually around 12.5-12.8 near redline. Most tuners will richen the AFR and advance the timing to increase power.

You can log the correction % during the "test" runs using the Cipher software.

__________________
08 G35 5AT Sedan | Stillen CBE | Invidia HFC | Injen CAI | Uprev Tune | Akebono BBK | Tanabe Coilovers | Hotchkis Sway Bars | GTSpec FSB | Black Headlights & Grille | Volk GT-F Wheels | Hankook V12 Evo Tires

Unclemeaty

You are right. the g/s does seem to peak at 268.79. B1 & B2 MAF meters measure up about .1v each beyond the initial 268.79. Must be an UpRev limit?

I do see a correction factor, but maybe I'm looking at the wrong one. Seems I see corrections at low and mid throttle opening, but when I go WOT the correction just stays rock steady at 100. I must be looking at the wrong attribute.

xsnapshot

Are most of these tables load based? (off the MAFv readings?) If there is no table to raise the g/s limit, then you'll have to "half maf" all the loads. This is common in the Subaru realm when we exceed 300 g/s. I'm getting up to about 290 g/s in my WRX, so I'm close.

I'd be curious to know if that is how (half MAFing) the uprev folks work around it. Those with supercharges and turbos are definitely exceeding that 268#.

There is probably an Open loop/closed loop logic to the ECU. In closed loop there is a constant correction being added/subtracted to maintain stoich, but when you pass a certain threshold the ECU no longer attempts to control the AFR beyond what its programmed to run. This is why you still see some people with intakes running lean up top. The ECU cannot compensate up there.

xsnapshot

how are you guys getting your AFR? dual widebands or stocks sensors? Can you do a log of both AFR sensors over RPM in, say, a 3rd gear pull?

Unclemeaty

Seems our 370zs have two WideBand O2 sensors. I just have to confirm what they are, but logging options show bank 1 and bank 2, WB A/F ratio. The ECU as well has a pretty nice AFR target map for the mixture to reach, and then there is a closed loop correction % for hitting that target taken from the main fuel maps. The sensors can absolutely be logged along with up to ~20 out of ~50 other sensors.

What you mean by half-mafing is adjusting the precision of the MAF to where the ECU will start hitting values to the leftern parts of the maps rather than values all the way to the right.

So in the Subaru world... Your MAF sensor<s> can go up to 300 g/s? I presume that is pretty close to the 5v mark and about ~300-325 WHP on an AWD turbo car. That about right? Im not educated on Subaru, but I'm sure you've got a different MAF sensor and as we've got two in our 370s.

xsnapshot

Half mafing is where you take any tables that are referenced to load (where load is derived from the MAFv values and an equation, where calculated load = (g/s*60)/RPM) and then half those values. That way when your hitting a load of 2, its actually a load of 4 and your just tricking the ECU into being able to account for more airflow. You loose resolution doing this, but its better than just plugging in a really rich value in the last cell for open loop fueling, and hoping that it is rich enough to account for the air past the 268 g/s limit so that the AFR is right. As you can imagine, in that case, the AFR would swing rich, then back lean again.

So as an example, all the loads in the ignition advance table, and the fueling are halved, and the injector scalar is halved, and any other table that references the MAFv is halved. You don't have to halve it, you could say, use a value of 75% or something. But the thing you have to remember is when you data log, the values will be different. Its a tricky thing to wrap your mind around, and I honestly wouldn't recommended it without knowing for sure that other tables are not referencing the MAF to apply compensations.

The thing about g/s is it doesn't necessarily mean you can predict the MAFv. There should be a table that is called a mass airflow sensor calibration (or something similar) where a voltage range (1-5v) is correlated with the appropriate g/s for that voltage. These are the values you would change to account for a CAI bringing in different g/s than the stock intake, for a similar voltage.

I'm sure the Subaru MAF is different. However ours don't read past something like 4.76 volts. My 300 g/s is hit at that voltage, however I'm only at like 4.6x volts.

serturbo

What type of AFRs are you seeing for the stock tune? I have a DashDyno and it reads info from the OBDII port. AFR during normal cruising looks fine at 14.4, but it shows super lean (in the 17s) during WOT. I thought it should go rich during WOT.

toner123

not sure if someone said this but are O2 sensors are wideband.

Megan370z

you should have a tune asap if you are into 17 during WOT !!!

at wot when I was stock it was around 13.7-13.8