Gains from E85 (ethanol) on an N/A bolt on 370Z

Push370zzz · 09-21-2015, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitViper

Not bad at all for just changing fuel and minor retuning. In fact, I saw more gains with the fuel than I did with all the work and money spent on the Stillen intakes on the car. This was also done with stock injectors and a stock pump -- worked perfectly fine, holds a clean AFR all the way to fuel cut (7800 rpm). Fuel economy while cruising on the freeway at 75mph was actually the same if not 1-2mpg better than pump gas. Go figure.

Sorry, but there is absolutely no way that your car gets better gas mileage with E85 over E15 or less pump gas.

Chuck33079 · 09-21-2015, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Push370zzz

Sorry, but there is absolutely no way that your car gets better gas mileage with E85 over E15 or less pump gas.

Right, doesn't e85 usually result in a pretty substantial drop in mileage? It's about 30% less energy by volume than pump gas and that's why you need more volume than pump, right?

Elmo370z · 09-21-2015, 11:52 PM

Thats what i thoughr

synolimit · 09-21-2015, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njobe89

also, is there a definite answer on will going e85 do anything to the car in the long run.

Phunks been running it 3 years without issue. Only issues ive seen is on old cars. Google e85 black sludge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megan370z

Im pretty sure I remember seen a guy on here running with E85 and showed gain which was with Uprev last year.
There is an issue somewhere in the tuning because Uprev can advance it to 32 at high load/RPM

This for me? My tuner didnt say he couldnt set the timing higher, he said it wouldnt take it. The ecu and or uprev wont let him do ****. And if my post on why e85 lost power over 93 makes sense to anyone else besides me than thats why. 28* just isnt enough nor good enough to preignite the mix soon enough. Im testing the dyno and tuner again real soon going back to 93 and going back to 2.5" CAI. Ill find my power loss if it kills me.

synolimit · 09-22-2015, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

Right, doesn't e85 usually result in a pretty substantial drop in mileage? It's about 30% less energy by volume than pump gas and that's why you need more volume than pump, right?

Per my tuner its 33%. This is why i was able to install GTR injectors and drive without issue on e85! At a rough guess of 14% rich that was in the clear to get to him 40 minutes away on the highway and side streets without so much as even a hickup.

FYI to anyone needing to install injectors at home and drive to your tuner.

njobe89 · 09-22-2015, 07:51 AM

a reputable shop here in atlanta got back to me and the tuner from the shop stated that power can be made on uprev with e85. they quoted me around $500 for the tune as it would take a couple hours according to them. now i have to justify spending around $700 for maybe 10whp.

POS VETT · 09-22-2015, 08:20 AM

In the case of my GM truck, the drop in fuel consumption is way less than 30%. The drop in energy content is also less than 30%. The number 30% or 33% is used to size up injectors and fuel pump to give them cushion so that they work in a smaller duty cycle.

E85 has a much higher knock resistance and it burns at a lower temperature, these two traits allow the engine to run at near stoichiometric (i.e. leaner) and at very advanced ignition timing for a more complete burn producing a better use of the fuel. When a PCM senses a knock with E10, it backs off timing and injects more fuel to combat its destructive effects, meaning power output is lower and fuel consumption is higher, then the driver uses more throttle to compensate which makes the fuel consumption of E10 is now much closer to that of E85, or possibly, even less.

Push370zzz · 09-22-2015, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

Right, doesn't e85 usually result in a pretty substantial drop in mileage? It's about 30% less energy by volume than pump gas and that's why you need more volume than pump, right?

Yes. E85 has about 72% as much energy as an equivalent gallon of gasoline. E10 should have about 96%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS VETT

In the case of my GM truck, the drop in fuel consumption is way less than 30%. The drop in energy content is also less than 30%. The number 30% or 33% is used to size up injectors and fuel pump to give them cushion so that they work in a smaller duty cycle.

E85 has a much higher knock resistance and it burns at a lower temperature, these two traits allow the engine to run at near stoichiometric (i.e. leaner) and at very advanced ignition timing for a more complete burn producing a better use of the fuel. When a PCM senses a knock with E10, it backs off timing and injects more fuel to combat its destructive effects, meaning power output is lower and fuel consumption is higher, then the driver uses more throttle to compensate which makes the fuel consumption of E10 is now much closer to that of E85, or possibly, even less.

The drop in energy content is very close to 30%. E85 is absolutely better for power, particularly in boosted applications, due to what you pointed out. That said you are just not going to get better or even close to the gas mileage you'll get on regular gasoline or E10.

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ison-test.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoli...lon_equivalent

Chuck33079 · 09-22-2015, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Push370zzz

Yes. E85 has about 72% as much energy as an equivalent gallon of gasoline. E10 should have about 96%.

The drop in energy content is very close to 30%. E85 is absolutely better for power, particularly in boosted applications, due to what you pointed out. That said you are just not going to get better or even close to the gas mileage you'll get on regular gasoline or E10.

E85 vs. Gasoline Comparison Test

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoli...lon_equivalent

Right. So if someone is claiming the same, if not 1-2 miles per gallon improvement, they are in error since it would not be possible to get the same mileage on a fuel that has less energy by volume. Maybe he's looking at the mpg gauge which is now wrong due to different injectors?

I'm also unclear how someone can claim a power improvement from going to E85 without any timing adjustments. Can someone explain how that works? I'm at a loss.

njobe89 · 09-22-2015, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

Right. So if someone is claiming the same, if not 1-2 miles per gallon improvement, they are in error since it would not be possible to get the same mileage on a fuel that has less energy by volume. Maybe he's looking at the mpg gauge which is now wrong due to different injectors?

I'm also unclear how someone can claim a power improvement from going to E85 without any timing adjustments. Can someone explain how that works? I'm at a loss.

if you just switch to e85 without a tune, you won't make any power. with the correct tune you are supposed to make power... not sure how other than it's higher octane rating than 93.

Chuck33079 · 09-22-2015, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njobe89

if you just switch to e85 without a tune, you won't make any power. with the correct tune you are supposed to make power... not sure how other than it's higher octane rating than 93.

That's what I thought as well, but someone in here is claiming that he saw a power increase with zero timing changes. I was under the impression that the additional power from an E85 tune came from the additional timing you could run.

njobe89 · 09-22-2015, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

That's what I thought as well, but someone in here is claiming that he saw a power increase with zero timing changes. I was under the impression that the additional power from an E85 tune came from the additional timing you could run.

i'm in the process of getting gtr injectors and then setting up a tune and i'll see what i gain. right now im at 324, but i've heard that the dyno at z1 reads high and i'm going to a different place this time.

synolimit · 09-22-2015, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njobe89

i'm in the process of getting gtr injectors and then setting up a tune and i'll see what i gain. right now im at 324, but i've heard that the dyno at z1 reads high and i'm going to a different place this time.

The OP has OEM injectors so the gauge should read right as it goes off of injector duty cycling. I'd personally stick with Z1, good to be on the same dyno! I'm betting now Jon does have tuning secrets but remember they read "high" because they use 5th and STD. Ask him to do a run in 4th and SAE. I'm betting you come down to about 309 as that's what others use. The last 370z I tested with my ported parts made 324 in 5th SAE. He had ported TB, upper and lower, FI lth and CBE and gen 3 CAI. in 4th he only put down 316. I'm guessing since you don't have ported stuff the dynojets read about the same and not reading high, it's just what you run and correct for is all.

njobe89 · 09-22-2015, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

The OP has OEM injectors so the gauge should read right as it goes off of injector duty cycling. I'd personally stick with Z1, good to be on the same dyno! I'm betting now Jon does have tuning secrets but remember they read "high" because they use 5th and STD. Ask him to do a run in 4th and SAE. I'm betting you come down to about 309 as that's what others use. The last 370z I tested with my ported parts made 324 in 5th SAE. He had ported TB, upper and lower, FI lth and CBE and gen 3 CAI. in 4th he only put down 316. I'm guessing since you don't have ported stuff the dynojets read about the same and not reading high, it's just what you run and correct for is all.

only reason i dont feel like going back to z1 is because it's almost a 2 hour drive whereas this other shop is about 40min and the other thing is cause of some idiot they don't you go to the back to see the car tuned anymore. you have to wait in the front... i believe something happened and a guy tried to sue them or something so i understand where they're coming from with that, but it's boring to sit in the lobby for 2+ hours

synolimit · 09-22-2015, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njobe89

only reason i dont feel like going back to z1 is because it's almost a 2 hour drive whereas this other shop is about 40min and the other thing is cause of some idiot they don't you go to the back to see the car tuned anymore. you have to wait in the front... i believe something happened and a guy tried to sue them or something so i understand where they're coming from with that, but it's boring to sit in the lobby for 2+ hours

Haha I hear yeah. Take a friend, go to a strip club.

09-22-2015, 07:51 AM	#66 (permalink)
njobe89 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2014 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 5,227 Drives: 2013 370z BS 6MT Rep Power: 174284	a reputable shop here in atlanta got back to me and the tuner from the shop stated that power can be made on uprev with e85. they quoted me around $500 for the tune as it would take a couple hours according to them. now i have to justify spending around $700 for maybe 10whp. __________________ 2 plus 2 times 2 = ? ... hint, it's not 8 Stillen CBE, Stillen Gen 3, TP's, Uprev tuned - 324whp/264tq

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Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,709 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295378	Thats what i thoughr

09-22-2015, 08:20 AM	#67 (permalink)
POS VETT Track Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Columbus OH Posts: 612 Drives: Z34\|C4LT4\|C6Z06\|V25 Rep Power: 3366	In the case of my GM truck, the drop in fuel consumption is way less than 30%. The drop in energy content is also less than 30%. The number 30% or 33% is used to size up injectors and fuel pump to give them cushion so that they work in a smaller duty cycle. E85 has a much higher knock resistance and it burns at a lower temperature, these two traits allow the engine to run at near stoichiometric (i.e. leaner) and at very advanced ignition timing for a more complete burn producing a better use of the fuel. When a PCM senses a knock with E10, it backs off timing and injects more fuel to combat its destructive effects, meaning power output is lower and fuel consumption is higher, then the driver uses more throttle to compensate which makes the fuel consumption of E10 is now much closer to that of E85, or possibly, even less.