In-Car at Willow Springs + Off-track dirt action...Thanks Ice Mode...

cossie1600 · 01-29-2013, 01:45 PM

You might not have experienced it, but the old 350 had it and the C5 and C6 had it. My RX-8 also had it, but never as bad as the 370.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

They don't quite experience ice mode like we do in 370z. I have been long time Porsche guy and ice mode in Porsches , Mazdas and BMWs isn't nearly as scary as 370z ice mode. Hell my Boxster was raced over and over and never had this issue. My track going MX5 didn't have this issue either? So it's downright inaccurate to say many other street cars have this issue and that the issue is the same. The ice mode in 370 let's off brake pressure far too much at all corners at once and doesnt regain pressure quickly enough. While some other systems may experience minor ice mode issues they aren't the same as what we experience.

ryan0 · 01-29-2013, 02:11 PM

I've heard too many people say "ice mode" kicked in when they screw up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

doesn't know how to slow car down without brakes?

So that's what we are talking about right? the example of where the ABS kicks in when not needed and basically any real braking goes away is "ice mode"? And mikes example of tapping the brake and it kicks in super hard is something different?

All cars have brake issues and "ice mode" seems to be a BS catch all. I think it needs to be better defined in order to help everyone.

If it can't be precisely defined, there needs to be more discussion about brakes in general than just blaming the car.

"Trail braking" and suspension dynamics can cause the rear to step out... and are the usual culprits.

After that, you can look at the cars. Bias, fade, computers, ABS blocks, vacuum, lines, etc were all designed for the cars on the street, and work arounds and/or driving changes need to be accepted if you're going to track the car.

It's not really Nissans fault if a street car spins on track. It's the drivers.

....in my opinion.

ryan0 · 01-29-2013, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwnshift

That's my version.

Now that's a good post.

M.Bonanni · 01-29-2013, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan0

All cars have brake issues and "ice mode" seems to be a BS catch all. I think it needs to be better defined in order to help everyone.

This. Ice mode is just a descriptor for the most common occurrence but it doesn't always feel like ice. The problem is the ABS engaging in general so maybe we call it "safe mode." All cars have certain parameters that have to be met to engage ABS, the 370Zs just seems to be much more intrusive for track driving than other cars.

Shamu · 01-29-2013, 03:37 PM

SO just ask yourself this question. Are you WOT down long straight and going immediately to brakes with no coasting? In other words depleting vacuum all way down straight with WOT and then not building vacuum with long enough deacceleration?

I wish more people would just put big vacuum can on their 370Z brake circuit. With that mod and understanding that our issues are primarily vacuum deprivation you can pretty much get around 99% of ice mode our cars expereince. To date Im close to a year of no Ice mode after being plagued by ice so badly that I disconnected abs for a nearly an entire season while I worked on solutions.

Sh0velMan · 01-29-2013, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

SO just ask yourself this question. Are you WOT down long straight and going immediately to brakes with no coasting? In other words depleting vacuum all way down straight with WOT and then not building vacuum with long enough deacceleration?

I wish more people would just put big vacuum can on their 370Z brake circuit. With that mod and understanding that our issues are primarily vacuum deprivation you can pretty much get around 99% of ice mode our cars expereince. To date Im close to a year of no Ice mode after being plagued by ice so badly that I disconnected abs for a nearly an entire season while I worked on solutions.

Can you just post a photo of your configuration already? lol I believe you, show me how you handled it so I can copy! hahahah

Shamu · 01-29-2013, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

You might not have experienced it, but the old 350 had it and the C5 and C6 had it. My RX-8 also had it, but never as bad as the 370.

My 350 wasnt nearly as bad.

Shamu · 01-29-2013, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan0

I've heard too many people say "ice mode" kicked in when they screw up.

So that's what we are talking about right? the example of where the ABS kicks in when not needed and basically any real braking goes away is "ice mode"? And mikes example of tapping the brake and it kicks in super hard is something different?

All cars have brake issues and "ice mode" seems to be a BS catch all. I think it needs to be better defined in order to help everyone.

If it can't be precisely defined, there needs to be more discussion about brakes in general than just blaming the car.

"Trail braking" and suspension dynamics can cause the rear to step out... and are the usual culprits.

After that, you can look at the cars. Bias, fade, computers, ABS blocks, vacuum, lines, etc were all designed for the cars on the street, and work arounds and/or driving changes need to be accepted if you're going to track the car.

It's not really Nissans fault if a street car spins on track. It's the drivers.

....in my opinion.

The hard pedal and no brake pressure are classic symptom of low vacuum and ice mode.

Its a design flaw by Nissan and I completely reject that "all cars have braking issues" There are many car when you put good fluid and set of track pads will work just fine in track day enviroment. It is Nissans fault for developing a car they say is track ready with braking system that has real issues.

Also I had a rear caliper with less than 8000 miles break on track that did cause me to spin. I controlled car and stayed on track but my expereince with 370Z's brakes has been less than positive.

Heck my old 70's era Porsche/VW 914 had better more reliable brakes than 370Z!

Sh0velMan · 01-29-2013, 03:54 PM

Something like this? You just put it in series with the factory hose from the manifold to the booster?

Summit Racing® Vacuum Reservoirs SUM-G1464 - SummitRacing.com

Dwnshift · 01-29-2013, 03:57 PM

That is it.

M.Bonanni · 01-29-2013, 04:05 PM

Well it certainly is inexpensive enough. If more people try it out with success then maybe it will be a good band-aid until I can do a dedicated track build. I probably will still not trust the brakes 100% though until I bypass that ABS system all together.

Reaper42 · 01-29-2013, 04:09 PM

Yea Shamu, thats like the fifth time you have been asked with no reply. Can you please provide info on your set up so you can help the rest of the community out....including links to exact parts and some pics of yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh0velMan

Can you just post a photo of your configuration already? lol I believe you, show me how you handled it so I can copy! hahahah

martin82 · 01-29-2013, 05:35 PM

For me Ryan, this happened at butttonwillow driving cw13, at club corner, I don't need to brake or anything going into it, but when I hit club corner, I don't know what happened but one caliper grabbed for a second...
This only happened once so far out of 30 track days or so.

clintfocus · 01-29-2013, 06:34 PM

ok so the part on summit is cheap, but where does it go?!

cv129 · 01-29-2013, 10:02 PM

Googled "Vacuum loss after WOT" or "Vacuum loss after cam upgrade" yielded some results...the 2nd one seems popular among domestics, and they would add a vacuum canister.

I am no mechanic, so I don't exactly know what to search for. Hope someone figures out how to do it....I guess we just have to ask google the right question, b/c whatever the solution is, someone has done it already.

01-29-2013, 03:37 PM	#35 (permalink)
Shamu A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Nor Cal Posts: 1,059 Drives: 370Z Racecar Rep Power: 19	SO just ask yourself this question. Are you WOT down long straight and going immediately to brakes with no coasting? In other words depleting vacuum all way down straight with WOT and then not building vacuum with long enough deacceleration? I wish more people would just put big vacuum can on their 370Z brake circuit. With that mod and understanding that our issues are primarily vacuum deprivation you can pretty much get around 99% of ice mode our cars expereince. To date Im close to a year of no Ice mode after being plagued by ice so badly that I disconnected abs for a nearly an entire season while I worked on solutions. Reaper42 likes this. __________________ Grant

01-29-2013, 03:54 PM	#39 (permalink)
Sh0velMan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth Posts: 3,349 Drives: Noisily. Rep Power: 20	Something like this? You just put it in series with the factory hose from the manifold to the booster? Summit Racing® Vacuum Reservoirs SUM-G1464 - SummitRacing.com __________________ Buy My Car! \| Build Thread

01-29-2013, 04:05 PM	#41 (permalink)
M.Bonanni The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 2,575 Drives: Fast Rep Power: 1320	Well it certainly is inexpensive enough. If more people try it out with success then maybe it will be a good band-aid until I can do a dedicated track build. I probably will still not trust the brakes 100% though until I bypass that ABS system all together. __________________ MikeBonanni.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/MikeBonanni Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MBonanni36 Function > Form

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01-29-2013, 03:57 PM	#40 (permalink)
Dwnshift Track Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Cincy Posts: 717 Drives: NISMO 370Z RC Rep Power: 14	That is it.

01-29-2013, 05:35 PM	#43 (permalink)
martin82 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: los angeles Posts: 2,636 Drives: 12 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 20	For me Ryan, this happened at butttonwillow driving cw13, at club corner, I don't need to brake or anything going into it, but when I hit club corner, I don't know what happened but one caliper grabbed for a second... This only happened once so far out of 30 track days or so.

01-29-2013, 06:34 PM	#44 (permalink)
clintfocus Track Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: los angeles Age: 38 Posts: 933 Drives: 370z, EK Civic, F150 Rep Power: 15	ok so the part on summit is cheap, but where does it go?!

01-29-2013, 10:02 PM	#45 (permalink)
cv129 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,222 Drives: 09 Nismo, 16 Nismo Rep Power: 163995	Googled "Vacuum loss after WOT" or "Vacuum loss after cam upgrade" yielded some results...the 2nd one seems popular among domestics, and they would add a vacuum canister. I am no mechanic, so I don't exactly know what to search for. Hope someone figures out how to do it....I guess we just have to ask google the right question, b/c whatever the solution is, someone has done it already.