AutoX stock class, rear bar instead of front?

AutoX Z · 07-11-2012, 06:44 PM

I've actually thought a lot about switching to a rear bar and compensating by increasing the bump stop rate to get the front stiff enough. Not going to make the jump this year but may play around a little after nationals this year and see if I can get it to work.

Dwnshift · 07-11-2012, 08:51 PM

Are you not allowed front control arms for camber?
If your not running a LSD and go with just a rear bar... Def creeping in on inside wheels spin which will kill any forward bite out of a corner.
There is always a couple ways to skin the cat as they say.
Again .... Not sure exactly what your rules are.

AutoX Z · 07-11-2012, 10:10 PM

Rules are alignment adjustment using OEM equipment only (no camber arms, crash bolts, etc.), shocks (not springs), bump stops, and front OR rear bar. Aside from tire pressures that's all you get to tweak the set-up of the car.

Shamu · 07-11-2012, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwnshift

Are you not allowed front control arms for camber?
If your not running a LSD and go with just a rear bar... Def creeping in on inside wheels spin which will kill any forward bite out of a corner.
There is always a couple ways to skin the cat as they say.
Again .... Not sure exactly what your rules are.

Nope SCCA solo rules suck. You are pretty much stuck with max of stock alignment specs. You have to be real careful in Solo it's not like track. Slow turns in second gear will induce wheel spin. They are also stuck with crappy VLSD not a real LSD like we are used to so inside wheel spin is huge consideration.

A good driver can drive around slight understeer but it's real tough to overcome inside wheel spin if your rear bar is too big.

But I'm biased I have no patience for goofy stock classes in SCCA I want a car that allows me flexibility in setup. I dont want to be a slave to restrictive AX rules. At minim street mod if not prepared are where my cars always end up with SCCA. I couldn't even live with Street prepared. Winning isn't everything for me in amatuer motorsports having a car I can tune and play with is where it's at. It's growing sentiment in my region where we have growing non SCCA clubs that attract 200 plus attendees at each event. Most not running stock classes. sCCA needs to be mindful they are losing mindshare with folks like me and others. I'm petitioning for differnt set of street modified and prepared rules that allow heavier street going cars to be comptitve.

wstar · 07-12-2012, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

Winning isn't everything for me in amatuer motorsports having a car I can tune and play with is where it's at. It's growing sentiment in my region where we have growing non SCCA clubs that attract 200 plus attendees at each event.

I don't think it's just your region. Personally, I could care less about competing with anyone but myself. I just go to events to try to get better at driving, and the last thing I want is to add complexity to managing the car/build to fit into some specific rules-lawyered competition classification.

Dwnshift · 07-12-2012, 07:14 AM

What are your current camber settings?
Back in the 350z T2 SCCA days... We would put the front control arms in a press an tweak them a bit for camber.

Shamu · 07-12-2012, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwnshift

What are your current camber settings?
Back in the 350z T2 SCCA days... We would put the front control arms in a press an tweak them a bit for camber.

That's illegal in SCCA Solo II stock classes. But I can assure you there are people at a national level with slightly tweeked control arms. Im not much for cheating to win an auto cross competition but if goal is to win at all costs certainly that's an option for person willing to take risk of being protested.

ChrisSlicks · 07-12-2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

That's illegal in SCCA Solo II stock classes. But I can assure you there are people at a national level with slightly tweeked control arms. Im not much for cheating to win an auto cross competition but if goal is to win at all costs certainly that's an option for person willing to take risk of being protested.

I think provided your numbers are at the limit of stock specs there isn't much they can say. If you go beyond stock spec then there is certainly grounds for a protest.

cossie1600 · 07-12-2012, 10:32 AM

a lot of people cheat.....

Dwnshift · 07-12-2012, 11:01 AM

I would call the front control arms being tweaked a bit cheating.... espc if the rules allow for some alignment changes. So if there is a max negative camber number... Going over that is cheating .... But getting some additional negative camber could be had with some arms that had a casting defect or were that way after hitting some curbing.

There are other ways of getting camber on the front end of the Z.

Shamu · 07-12-2012, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwnshift

I would call the front control arms being tweaked a bit cheating.... espc if the rules allow for some alignment changes. So if there is a max negative camber number... Going over that is cheating .... But getting some additional negative camber could be had with some arms that had a casting defect or were that way after hitting some curbing.

There are other ways of getting camber on the front end of the Z.

Yes and in stock SCCA Solo classes most of those ways are likely illegal. Likelihood of being protested at local level is low. Likelihood of being protested at national level is higher, but I know of cars that have won nationals with illegal items. ...just tells you something about someones character if they are willing to cheat in an amateur sport that is supposed to be self regulated. Plenty of cheater motors, cheater flywheels, cheater bushings, etc out there. SCCA Solo rules are pretty explicit about not manipulating stock suspension parts. Is someone going to take measurements of your suspension arms? Unlikely but you have to live with fact your cheating as rules dont allow that. Changing bushing position to gain more camber is not legal in stock Solo class either. You're limited to un molested stock parts and connecting locations unfortunately.

So I wonder what best setup is? Big front bar with more bump in rear or bigger bar in rear with more bump up front for poor stock class guys? I havent seen this discussed before. I never had this issue with Nismo but base and sport model guys have sucky bars and springs and can only modify one swaybar with choice of front or rear.

cossie1600 · 07-12-2012, 11:36 AM

those scca solo guys are weird. there was a guy that forged bunch of fake Honda docs to get some stiffer springs or something. got caught, suspended and now back writing articles. bunch of crazy middle age guys

Dwnshift · 07-12-2012, 11:53 AM

Sorry... The above post should have read "I WOULD NOT"
There isn't a successful team in racing that hasn't pushed one grey area or another.
Again... If you tweak the arms a little bit and get -.5 more neg camber vs flat out bend them to extremes and get -1.5.... The later you are asking for it.
Get creative and find a really good machine shop.

Shamu · 07-12-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

those scca solo guys are weird. there was a guy that forged bunch of fake Honda docs to get some stiffer springs or something. got caught, suspended and now back writing articles. bunch of crazy middle age guys

Yeah I have a hard time taking the sport seriously. But some of top Solo people have crazy driving skills. I like it for that aspect alone. The whole class thing is screwy. The things you can and cannot do arent practical for real world. You essentially have to build a dedicated nerdy autocross car to compete at high levels. Not much cross over with track driving or hillclimbing so I just drive AX for fun in 3050 lb XP car. It is fun to drive up in a street legal XP car and beat trailered cars weighing more than 100 lbs less on race slicks

Blue Gumby · 07-12-2012, 01:24 PM

Ok, I just ordered an eibach rear bar just to try it out. I have new set of Koni yellow and was thinking about sending them in to be revalved with the intension of running stiffer bump stop. How stiff I have no clue, bump stop are relatively cheap. I seen some Penske bump stop that's I believe 400 lb when compressed an inch, would be more trail and error. I would have to get the front of the Koni's revalved with high rebound to keep it on the bump stop, like NASCAR.

07-11-2012, 06:44 PM	#16 (permalink)
AutoX Z Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 314 Drives: 370Z Base, Sport Rep Power: 16	I've actually thought a lot about switching to a rear bar and compensating by increasing the bump stop rate to get the front stiff enough. Not going to make the jump this year but may play around a little after nationals this year and see if I can get it to work. __________________ 2013 SCCA Solo National Champion VVV For Sale VVV

07-11-2012, 10:10 PM	#18 (permalink)
AutoX Z Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 314 Drives: 370Z Base, Sport Rep Power: 16	Rules are alignment adjustment using OEM equipment only (no camber arms, crash bolts, etc.), shocks (not springs), bump stops, and front OR rear bar. Aside from tire pressures that's all you get to tweak the set-up of the car. __________________ 2013 SCCA Solo National Champion VVV For Sale VVV

07-12-2012, 10:32 AM	#24 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	a lot of people cheat..... AK370Z likes this.

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07-11-2012, 08:51 PM	#17 (permalink)
Dwnshift Track Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Cincy Posts: 717 Drives: NISMO 370Z RC Rep Power: 14	Are you not allowed front control arms for camber? If your not running a LSD and go with just a rear bar... Def creeping in on inside wheels spin which will kill any forward bite out of a corner. There is always a couple ways to skin the cat as they say. Again .... Not sure exactly what your rules are.

07-12-2012, 07:14 AM	#21 (permalink)
Dwnshift Track Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Cincy Posts: 717 Drives: NISMO 370Z RC Rep Power: 14	What are your current camber settings? Back in the 350z T2 SCCA days... We would put the front control arms in a press an tweak them a bit for camber.

07-12-2012, 11:01 AM	#25 (permalink)
Dwnshift Track Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Cincy Posts: 717 Drives: NISMO 370Z RC Rep Power: 14	I would call the front control arms being tweaked a bit cheating.... espc if the rules allow for some alignment changes. So if there is a max negative camber number... Going over that is cheating .... But getting some additional negative camber could be had with some arms that had a casting defect or were that way after hitting some curbing. There are other ways of getting camber on the front end of the Z.

07-12-2012, 11:36 AM	#27 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	those scca solo guys are weird. there was a guy that forged bunch of fake Honda docs to get some stiffer springs or something. got caught, suspended and now back writing articles. bunch of crazy middle age guys

07-12-2012, 11:53 AM	#28 (permalink)
Dwnshift Track Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Cincy Posts: 717 Drives: NISMO 370Z RC Rep Power: 14	Sorry... The above post should have read "I WOULD NOT" There isn't a successful team in racing that hasn't pushed one grey area or another. Again... If you tweak the arms a little bit and get -.5 more neg camber vs flat out bend them to extremes and get -1.5.... The later you are asking for it. Get creative and find a really good machine shop.

07-12-2012, 01:24 PM	#30 (permalink)
Blue Gumby Base Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: new york Posts: 31 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 13	Ok, I just ordered an eibach rear bar just to try it out. I have new set of Koni yellow and was thinking about sending them in to be revalved with the intension of running stiffer bump stop. How stiff I have no clue, bump stop are relatively cheap. I seen some Penske bump stop that's I believe 400 lb when compressed an inch, would be more trail and error. I would have to get the front of the Koni's revalved with high rebound to keep it on the bump stop, like NASCAR.