Intermediate+ level hpde driver, do I need cooling mods for first track day?

vjarnot · 05-12-2012, 12:32 PM

I want to track the Z before deciding whether it's worth the money to do the usual track mods (brake ducts, oil cooler, tires/wheels, dampers, camber arms, etc).

I'd like to do a track weekend with just pads/fluid (and probably some redline oil too) to get a feel for the car and decide whether I wish to continue tracking the Z. If I decide to continue tracking the Z, the oil cooler and brake ducts will be first - followed by tires and suspension.

I've read that regular track use requires an oil cooler, I've also read that beginning drivers can get away without one for a few weekends. My question is: can an intermediate-level hpde driver (I was running in either intermediate or advanced groups on R-comps in my S2000) do a track weekend with just a pad/fluid change? By "do a track weekend", I mean run 30-minute sessions without having to cool the car off mid-session. I don't mind if the oil temps climb, I just want them below the magical 280.

BTW, this would be at Barber or Road Atlanta in the next few months... so pretty high ambient temps.

Also, is an XP10/XP8 overkill for a full oem setup? I don't want brake issues, but I also don't want to cause brake issues on my (as yet) unducted setup.

cossie1600 · 05-12-2012, 12:35 PM

Shift at 6500 rpm, makes a huge difference. Do 1 or 2 laps and the back off. Don't use the xp10 unless you are experienced or have slicks. They. Bite so hard that it flips out the abs and you hit ice mode. They do have superior braking power than the 8

vjarnot · 05-12-2012, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

Shift at 6500 rpm, makes a huge difference. Do 1 or 2 laps and the back off.

So, 1 or 2 laps full revs, then back off to 6500; or shift at 6500 for 1 or 2 laps then back off from 6500?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

Don't use the xp10 unless you are experienced or have slicks. They. Bite so hard that it flips out the abs and you hit ice mode. They do have superior braking power than the 8

I want to walk the line between cooking the pads and causing ice mode. Mayhaps XP8/AX6 is a better combo for the RE050 tires?

Mike · 05-12-2012, 01:23 PM

I think you will have problems without cooling mods at your experience level, at least the oil cooler. You can get by without the brake cooling, but you will probably burn up your dust boots. I have run XP-12 pads on AD08 tires with no problems, I think the 10/8 combo will work. Just be advised, without brake cooling, I get about 4-5 days at Road Atlanta on a set of XP12s with my stoptechs. This car is a really easy car to drive fast, especially at those two tracks. I'm doing RA the first weekend of June with PCA.

martin82 · 05-12-2012, 01:31 PM

Like cossie said I wouldn't do any of the upgrades just do 2-3 laps and do one cool down then get on it again etc and no redlining

Mike · 05-12-2012, 01:37 PM

I gotta disagree. He is the level I was when I got the car. My first track day at Little Talladega ended after one 20 minute session when I cooked the brakes and my second had fuel starvation problems at Road Atlanta, requiring me to be towed off the track. That has nothing to do with cooling, but the car is easy to drive fast, and I would hate for him to waste a whole weekend babying the car. An oil cooler is a minimal investment, and good for the street too.

Dwnshift · 05-12-2012, 05:13 PM

Here is my .2....
Anytime you take a car onto the track... You have to be 100% ok w the possibility of something happening..balling it up... And being able to walk away.
With this is mind.... If there is a known "issue" w the said car... And you take it out on the track...tisk tisk.
Here is my issue wih his now... Let's say you go into the hairpin at Barber... and you have used up the vaccum for the assist on the brakes.... You hit "ice mode" ... your pedal goes solid... Car doesn't stop... And you hit someone elses baby.

And installing faster and harder ramping up pads.... WITHOUT installing some sort of ducting...not a good idea.
For the "investment" of the oil cooler and some ducting ... It's nothin compaired to what your gonna spend of the event and or possibly a bad outcome.
At the end of the day....it's better to do.... than to not.
Dwnshift

sixpax · 05-12-2012, 05:36 PM

I only did a Hyperdrive, one HPDE-1 type session for about 13 laps and my oil temperature was pegged at 260 ... and this was my first time ever on the track ... they say I had fuel starvation towards the end, I don't doubt that, but I thought for sure it was limp mode on account of the oil temperature. In any event, I am not going back on the track until I get the oil cooler and some brake ducting installed ... I was just on stock (non-sport) brakes and was babying the car and still hit 260 in oil temperature. It would be no fun to pay money for the whole weekend, and not get to "drive fast" the whole weekend because you exceeded the car's limitations. It's very easy to do with no oil cooler and crappy non-cooled brakes.

pen · 05-12-2012, 06:36 PM

Don't the 2012 models come with factory oil cooler? I run Carbotech XP10/8 on the nismo and they work just fine. The 370Z is a sports car and should be able to handle some track time in stock form. If you're not sure about long term tracking then I wouldn't spend money on a bunch of mods right now, pads and fluid should be fine for now.

vjarnot · 05-12-2012, 08:03 PM

Looks like consensus will be rather elusive

Oh well. I appreciate all the inputs - keep 'em coming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwnshift

For the "investment" of the oil cooler and some ducting ... It's nothin compaired to what your gonna spend of the event and or possibly a bad outcome.

I agree with your post in general, but tracking any street car is huge compromise and an exercise in probability... your post would apply to any car that's not fully stripped, caged, and race converted. Anyway, the problem is that it's definitely not nothing compared to the cost of the weekend; and it becomes an absolute waste of time and money if I decide the Z isn't worth tracking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixpax

I only did a Hyperdrive, one HPDE-1 type session for about 13 laps and my oil temperature was pegged at 260

Wow, 260 doesn't worry me; but overcoming the cooling system in HPDE-1 is scary... and downright farcical. Did you back off at 260, or did it level out at 260 on its own?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

I gotta disagree. He is the level I was when I got the car. My first track day at Little Talladega ended after one 20 minute session when I cooked the brakes and my second had fuel starvation problems at Road Atlanta, requiring me to be towed off the track. That has nothing to do with cooling, but the car is easy to drive fast, and I would hate for him to waste a whole weekend babying the car. An oil cooler is a minimal investment, and good for the street too.

Cooked OEM pads/fluid or aftermarket? No oil cooling issues, then?

I think little Talladega is just evil... I set my S on fire there once - oil filter backed off a bit, sprayed oil on track causing me to have an exciting spin, while also spraying oil on the exhaust manifold. I can state with full certainty that the exhaust manifold temperature on an S2000 is higher than the flash-point of 10W-30 synthetic

The fuel starvation issue is the real reason that I'm unsure about tracking/keeping the car I just bought: hence the desire for a trial run on track. Oil and brakes seem to be fixable (brakes less so, I suppose), but they really seem to have screwed the pooch on the fuel system of this car. Anyone thought about putting an inflatable bladder (balloon) in the left half of the tank yet? In other words, give up 50% - 60% of tank capacity in the hopes that that keeps the fuel pump wet...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pen

Don't the 2012 models come with factory oil cooler? I run Carbotech XP10/8 on the nismo and they work just fine. The 370Z is a sports car and should be able to handle some track time in stock form. If you're not sure about long term tracking then I wouldn't spend money on a bunch of mods right now, pads and fluid should be fine for now.

Apparently the OEM oil cooler ain't worth ****. And yes, it should be able to handle some track time in stock form. Nissan seems to have missed that memo... I didn't know how good I had it until I sold my S.

FL 4Motion · 05-12-2012, 08:15 PM

my 2 cents:

1. oil cooler, or your sessions will jsut be short and frustrating
2. brake fluid and pads (xp8s all around would be fine at first at least)
3. keep the tank topped off before EVERY session, on street tires, that should eliminate fuel starve pretty much.

sixpax · 05-12-2012, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vjarnot

Wow, 260 doesn't worry me; but overcoming the cooling system in HPDE-1 is scary... and downright farcical. Did you back off at 260, or did it level out at 260 on its own?

If you are not worried about 260, then let 'er rip.

Mike · 05-12-2012, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vjarnot

Cooked OEM pads/fluid or aftermarket? No oil cooling issues, then?

I had an oil cooler. That was with HP+ pads and new fluid, but like you said, little dega is evil.

This is how hot my brakes got at barber. Sport caliper and XP12 pads, hot enough to melt the powdercoat on my wheels, but they never faded at all. RBF600 fluid.

martin82 · 05-13-2012, 12:29 AM

As an intermediate I would believe you would already know not to cook ur brakes if you know u are on oem pads etc. No late breaking blah blah. I read everything here before hitting the track, difference mine is a '12 and has a cooler to keep you just enough out of limp mode.

I went to the track stock form to see how the car/brakes etc would handle, and knowing the cars fault, I took it easy which you would anyways on your first day with the Z at the track.....either way I would still say just go but don run 20 min sessions non stop pushing so hard. 4 laps and cool down then get on it again...

That's my thought but I only got about 12 track days on the Z since december.

cossie1600 · 05-13-2012, 12:42 AM

370's high oil temp is the result of the VVEL, you can definitely address some of the issue by lowering your shift point. Still, how much fun is it to shift at that point and the high ambient temp is going to put everything to the max? I still think you are better off biting the bullet to take care of it. Brake duct is nice, but you won't die without it. They will definitely make your pads last longer and more efficient though.

05-12-2012, 12:32 PM	#1 (permalink)
vjarnot Base Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Mathews, AL Posts: 68 Drives: 2012 370Z Base SP M6 Rep Power: 13	Intermediate+ level hpde driver, do I need cooling mods for first track day? I want to track the Z before deciding whether it's worth the money to do the usual track mods (brake ducts, oil cooler, tires/wheels, dampers, camber arms, etc). I'd like to do a track weekend with just pads/fluid (and probably some redline oil too) to get a feel for the car and decide whether I wish to continue tracking the Z. If I decide to continue tracking the Z, the oil cooler and brake ducts will be first - followed by tires and suspension. I've read that regular track use requires an oil cooler, I've also read that beginning drivers can get away without one for a few weekends. My question is: can an intermediate-level hpde driver (I was running in either intermediate or advanced groups on R-comps in my S2000) do a track weekend with just a pad/fluid change? By "do a track weekend", I mean run 30-minute sessions without having to cool the car off mid-session. I don't mind if the oil temps climb, I just want them below the magical 280. BTW, this would be at Barber or Road Atlanta in the next few months... so pretty high ambient temps. Also, is an XP10/XP8 overkill for a full oem setup? I don't want brake issues, but I also don't want to cause brake issues on my (as yet) unducted setup.

05-12-2012, 01:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2186	I think you will have problems without cooling mods at your experience level, at least the oil cooler. You can get by without the brake cooling, but you will probably burn up your dust boots. I have run XP-12 pads on AD08 tires with no problems, I think the 10/8 combo will work. Just be advised, without brake cooling, I get about 4-5 days at Road Atlanta on a set of XP12s with my stoptechs. This car is a really easy car to drive fast, especially at those two tracks. I'm doing RA the first weekend of June with PCA. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

05-12-2012, 01:37 PM	#6 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2186	I gotta disagree. He is the level I was when I got the car. My first track day at Little Talladega ended after one 20 minute session when I cooked the brakes and my second had fuel starvation problems at Road Atlanta, requiring me to be towed off the track. That has nothing to do with cooling, but the car is easy to drive fast, and I would hate for him to waste a whole weekend babying the car. An oil cooler is a minimal investment, and good for the street too. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

05-12-2012, 05:13 PM	#7 (permalink)
Dwnshift Track Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Cincy Posts: 717 Drives: NISMO 370Z RC Rep Power: 14	Here is my .2.... Anytime you take a car onto the track... You have to be 100% ok w the possibility of something happening..balling it up... And being able to walk away. With this is mind.... If there is a known "issue" w the said car... And you take it out on the track...tisk tisk. Here is my issue wih his now... Let's say you go into the hairpin at Barber... and you have used up the vaccum for the assist on the brakes.... You hit "ice mode" ... your pedal goes solid... Car doesn't stop... And you hit someone elses baby. And installing faster and harder ramping up pads.... WITHOUT installing some sort of ducting...not a good idea. For the "investment" of the oil cooler and some ducting ... It's nothin compaired to what your gonna spend of the event and or possibly a bad outcome. At the end of the day....it's better to do.... than to not. Dwnshift Last edited by Dwnshift; 05-12-2012 at 05:31 PM.

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05-12-2012, 12:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	Shift at 6500 rpm, makes a huge difference. Do 1 or 2 laps and the back off. Don't use the xp10 unless you are experienced or have slicks. They. Bite so hard that it flips out the abs and you hit ice mode. They do have superior braking power than the 8

05-12-2012, 01:31 PM	#5 (permalink)
martin82 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: los angeles Posts: 2,636 Drives: 12 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 20	Like cossie said I wouldn't do any of the upgrades just do 2-3 laps and do one cool down then get on it again etc and no redlining

05-12-2012, 06:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
pen Base Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 32 Drives: 2012 370Z NISMO GM Rep Power: 14	Don't the 2012 models come with factory oil cooler? I run Carbotech XP10/8 on the nismo and they work just fine. The 370Z is a sports car and should be able to handle some track time in stock form. If you're not sure about long term tracking then I wouldn't spend money on a bunch of mods right now, pads and fluid should be fine for now.

05-12-2012, 08:15 PM	#11 (permalink)
FL 4Motion A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: FL Posts: 4,776 Drives: Baby Shark Rep Power: 701615	my 2 cents: 1. oil cooler, or your sessions will jsut be short and frustrating 2. brake fluid and pads (xp8s all around would be fine at first at least) 3. keep the tank topped off before EVERY session, on street tires, that should eliminate fuel starve pretty much.

05-13-2012, 12:29 AM	#14 (permalink)
martin82 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: los angeles Posts: 2,636 Drives: 12 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 20	As an intermediate I would believe you would already know not to cook ur brakes if you know u are on oem pads etc. No late breaking blah blah. I read everything here before hitting the track, difference mine is a '12 and has a cooler to keep you just enough out of limp mode. I went to the track stock form to see how the car/brakes etc would handle, and knowing the cars fault, I took it easy which you would anyways on your first day with the Z at the track.....either way I would still say just go but don run 20 min sessions non stop pushing so hard. 4 laps and cool down then get on it again... That's my thought but I only got about 12 track days on the Z since december.

05-13-2012, 12:42 AM	#15 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	370's high oil temp is the result of the VVEL, you can definitely address some of the issue by lowering your shift point. Still, how much fun is it to shift at that point and the high ambient temp is going to put everything to the max? I still think you are better off biting the bullet to take care of it. Brake duct is nice, but you won't die without it. They will definitely make your pads last longer and more efficient though.