Anyone ever experience Brake Failure as C&D did?

mikegreco16

So I'm trying to decide if I should buy a 370z or not, and having had a 350z I too did experience brake failure on the 350 and do not want to experience it again. So I'm trying to find out if anyone WHILE ROAD RACING has experienced brake failure.

Thanks in advance

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2013 Mustang GT-Ford Racing Axleback, Koni Yellows, Steeda Race Springs, Hawk Race Pads
2004 Turbo Spec v-300whp (SOLD)
2005 35th Anniversary 350z-(SOLD)

DarkJak

While I don't have any experience on the track, from what I've read, the car just needs DOT4 brake fluid and maybe better pads to prevent such a failure.

Stillen also makes a brake ducting kit for the front brakes if it still feels like you need cooler brakes.

mikegreco16

^thanks for the reply, from what I've read it is not a problem of pads or fluid but with the cooling of the brakes. C&D reported that its basically poor engineering on Nissan and the brakes are not allowed efficient cooling and/or not enough air is getting to them from the front. The Stillen brake ducts may work I have looked at those. But still no guarantee with that unless someone on here has experience with them.

When my brake failure happened I had Super Blue and Track pads. I just don't want to buy a car that will be strictly for track and weekends and be afraid to push it because my brakes are failing.

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2013 Mustang GT-Ford Racing Axleback, Koni Yellows, Steeda Race Springs, Hawk Race Pads
2004 Turbo Spec v-300whp (SOLD)
2005 35th Anniversary 350z-(SOLD)

BGTV8

Nothing wrong with the Nissan Akebono brakes ...... but if you flog them mercilessly then they will fade unless you have decent pads .... if you want to abuse anything it will fail eventually.

I have covered 65000 klics and dozens of track days and have had no brakes problems that I could not tie back to track surface conditions or plain old driver error ....

If you experienced "brake failure" in a 350Z - what were the circumstances and how much "mechanical sympathy" was exhibited .... do you actually understand what "brake fade" is, how you recognise it and what you do to deal with it ... because if yu don't, I'd invite you to undertake some research that might just save your life ....

A poor workman will blame his tools if he lacks the expertise to use them effectively.

This is a WOFTAM post ..........

Mike

yes, I experienced brake failure on my first track day at a brake intensive track. Running HP+ pads in front and stock in rear, in 20 minutes I wore the pads down to the backing plates, scored the rotors and boiled the fluid, which was valvoline synthetic.

The brakes do get extremely hot on this car, I solved the problem by switching to Stoptech Trophy brakes, which handle the heat or dissipate it a little better, and now I'm in the process of adding the stillen brake cooling kit.

I think if you just add the brake cooling kit, the akebonos will do fine. I know that had it been out earlier, I probably wouldn't have spent 7000 on the stoptechs.

btw, you will also need an oil cooler and a big gas can, because the car gets fuel starvation with less than 7/8 of a tank on right hand turns.

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NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z
Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

mikegreco16

Mike thanks for the response I have read about the oil cooler and radiator and such, but my main concern was the brakes because of my past experiences with Nissans. I'm intrigued to know if the cooling kit by Stillen would actually work or not. I know some people on the board have created their own and had success.


BGTV8 No I have no idea what brake fade is can you explain that (rolling eyes). And if you read the title carefully you would have seen that I was referring to Brake Failure not Brake Fade. DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE... Either 1) You lack the ability to read carefully or 2) No you don't know the difference and that is why you use the two interchangeably.


Apparently its not a Waste of time, because as Mike said he experienced the same thing in his 370z. So you can go back under your bridge, troll.

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2013 Mustang GT-Ford Racing Axleback, Koni Yellows, Steeda Race Springs, Hawk Race Pads
2004 Turbo Spec v-300whp (SOLD)
2005 35th Anniversary 350z-(SOLD)

spearfish25

There was no need, BGTV8, to assume he was naive to the terminology. Mikegreco, I'd suggest ignoring those posts. Most people on this forum are very helpful and won't flog posters regardless of the perceived quality of the post.

Mike is experienced and drives his car hard, so his opinion and experience are worthwhile. I sent you a PM, but I've never had brake problems with my 370Z after changing to RBF600 and Carbotech pads for track days.

If you love the car, don't let the potential brake issues stop you. And the Car and Driver Nismo disaster was purely their own fault...no car just loses 100% braking instantaneously without a catastrophic failure (eg blown line). Someone missed some warning signs and didn't back off if the accident was fade related.

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2013 Cadillac V-Wagon, RIP Z

Mike

well, I must say, the one time that mine went out, they felt just a little soft in one corner, so I backed off, and by the time I coasted into the pits a half mile later it took me about 50 feet to stop from 20 mph. When they do go, they give very little clue.

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NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z
Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

Red__Zed

From what I've seen and heard, the 370z brakes go out pretty suddenly after the fade starts.

bkleeman

^ what he said.

I nearly lost the car at Long Beach this weekend to this exact problem. The fluid boils and you have no pedal. For 10 laps everything was good, then I had 2 soft stops and then it was *gone*.

Well routed ducting is what you need. Duct intakes that are inside the frame rails have to make too many turns to get good airflow to the brakes - you need something that starts outside the frame rails (requires cutting holes in the front facia) or comes in from underneath the car.

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Brian Kleeman
Nissan 370Z - Pirelli World Challenge GTS #07
D.W.W. Motorsports | DXD Racing Clutches | SPL Parts | Aeromotions.com

sixpax

I wondered about that ... the Grand Am car has ducts in the fascia (way low and outside the fang area) that look like a fairly straight shot to the brakes.

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BGTV8

Troll indeed - LMFAO

I am a sports car lap record holder at Philip Island GP circuit, Winton Raceway and Calder Park, state champion in open sports cars in VSCRC, and touring car driver at Bathurst in the '70's and involved in Australian motorsports since 1968 in off-road and circuit events - and I have sprinted my Z34 many, many times - you won;t recognise these places becuase they are 12000 klics away.

I have enough "mechanical sympathy" to estabish when I have placed an excessive demand on the braking system and need to back off.

My point is that it (fade or boiled fluid) is not an equipment failure, it is the fact that the driver has placed a demand on the system that exceeds the systems abilities .... and this is not a failure of the manufacturer - it is a set of events that is completely driver-induced.

To me, brake failure is a mechanical loss of the braking system .... systermic hydraulic system failure, failed caliper or master cyclider seal etc ..... in my context, boiled fluid is not brake failure - it is extreme brake fade and a failure to properly engineer the heat management solution for the braking system in the vehicle ... maybe this is a bit too subtle, but in my experiecne, talking to race engineer about "brake failure" is a discussion of a different kind and thats the race engineering context that I come from.

Your post talks about whether you are going to buy a (road) car based on the propensity for "brake failure" and canvasses feedback based on track use which I provided.

If you want a RACE CAR, then engineer the car accordingly and don't purchase an OEM road car expecting it to tolerate RACE CAR demands (unless maybe you go buy a 9xx GT3).

That was the point I was trying to make and I stand by the comments - if that's being a troll, well so be it, but my comments are still completely valid, even if you do not (or cannot) recognise the.

My last post on this subject to avoid clogging the interweb ...

Robin Bailey

sixpax

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pen

BGTV8 makes valid points...I experienced brake fade once on the 350Z during the first time on the track but that was driver-induced (braking too early and dragging the brakes all the way to the corner, street pads with stock fluid). After installing Carbotech pads, upgrading fluid and learning to brake, I never experienced brake fade again for the next 10 track days.

I now have the 370Z NISMO and have only been to the track twice but haven't experienced brake fade. The 370Z NISMO has better a brake system than the 350Z but I still run Carbotech (XP10/8) and upgraded fluid on the track. The 370Z is a great car but it's not a GT2/GT3; as long as you understand the limitations of the brake system and don't exceed the designed capability then you'll be fine.

osbornsm

What exactly happened with "track" brake pads and fluid that boils at 600F ??

What pads were you running?

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