First autoX and need some advice

cossie1600 · 08-08-2011, 09:48 PM

If I recall correctly, the size the V710s come in for the 370 is crazy expensive compare to all the other size too. I really did like my V710s, but I couldn't believe how my times dropped after 4 events.

In all seriousness, you might want to try a couple more times before you drop money into something that you have only tried once. You know how many people quit after the first four or five events. Waking up early on Sunday for 5 runs is not everyone's cup of tea, also track day is the next step for a lot of people too. Out of the 20 novices I see every year at each event, I would say only 2-3 stay on to be full timers.

AutoX Z · 08-09-2011, 07:57 AM

They don't make the Kuhmos in the correct sizes for the 370 so you're stuck with A6's if you want an autox rcomp.

track370 · 08-09-2011, 08:58 AM

Thank you all so much for all the information. Will be very helpful in making my decision. I plan on getting a slick in another two events or so. I'm definitly going to stick with autocross and only get more deeply involved in track days/weekends as my expendable income increases for sure

I've designed, built, and raced 5 open wheel fsae cars in the past. And not just being a member on the team but being the head design engineer for 4 of those years, so I can say racing is definitly a huge part of me, hence also purchasing my z for this purpose

so chances are pretty slim I would quit after a few events

Once again, this forum is immensely helpful and I appreciate all the feedback from everyone! Picked up the stillen front anti last night. I think its conservativeness vs a hotch was the right thing to do if I'm planning on staying C stock and not planning on modding more suspension than that for a while.

cossie1600 · 08-09-2011, 09:24 AM

Hope to run with you at the Tri-State then (minus the R comps)

Shamu · 08-09-2011, 02:24 PM

If you stay in C Stock you dont have much you can do.

As mentioned front Swaybar, Shocks, cat back exhaust system and tires are only real changes. You will be camber limited in C Stock. You cant change stock offsets more than .25. These cars turn well so I wouldnt rule out front bar. In stockish base car you will want roll stiffness espeically if you are camber challenged.

A6 is only choice for AX if you are serious. I will say I ran A6 on track and they were much tougher than I had suspected. I ran two full track days and put 60 autocross runs on my fiorst set of A6's and they still have tread! I'm no wall flower either. I have spun car numerous times in AX, spun tires out of turns etc. My lap times were similar on both A6 and R6. A6 would get a little greasy towards end of hot session in 80 degree wheather.

Next step down would be Kuhmo 710 or Hankook 214. You not going to get ideal size in these tires however. Avoid the BFG r1 if AX is your gig as they need heat to work. anything under these will not be competitive in C Stock.

Nittos, Toyos, etc treaded DOT R's just dont cut it in AX as they require higher operating temps and just dont stick as well as slick DOT tires.

Street tirees. You might have a local street tire class you can run. If that is the case and they allow 140 Treadwear. Bridgestone re11, Yokohama Advan a008, Hankook RS3 are some of the top tires. I run cheap $200 a tire Nitto NTO5's and they are fine for street tire. I run 285 rear and 275 front. I use 43 front and 40 rear for those street tires. But I hate street tires in AX. I dont like abusing my street tires.

Back to A6. You can run 295 hooiser A6 up front on stock 9.5 and I think most of the C Stock guys run 295 on 10.5 back too. Because I run BSP and have a lot more freedom with suspension I run 315 rear and 295 front and car turns like there is no tomrrow.

Im rather biased but I cant stand running the 370Z stock in AX. Even my Nismo was frustrating. The car lacks proper LSD and suspension tuning to truly do well against much more agile MX5s in that class. Without a proper LSD you are definitely going to want a bigger front bar or you will be laying down big black stripes on inside wheel all the time if you are an agressive/fast AX driver. Did I say stock VLSD sucks? Man does it ever suck! I think thats the one thing that keeps the 370Z from doing well in Stock classes. Sure there is one hot shoe who podiumed at nationals but I'd put money on him being faster in a national class MX5. Also beware that AX seems to accelerate VLSD degradation in performance. Mine after a few AX days really seemed to fall off.

It took a lot of work just to tune out all the crappy dynamics of stock Nismo for my car to finally feel good in AX. I cant imagine driving a sloppy base 370Z in AX would be much fun if you are used to open wheel cars. They are very sloppy cars in stock form. Guess with a real good damper you could tune the car to work a little better.

Good luck! Keep us updated to your progress!

cossie1600 · 08-09-2011, 03:09 PM

i dont have any problems autoxing my car stock, but i run in a street tire pax class so i have different standards than the a6 guys. the modded cars and slicks are nice, but street tires can be challenging in their own rights on a front heavy car like the z.

AutoX Z · 08-09-2011, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

Im rather biased but I cant stand running the 370Z stock in AX. Even my Nismo was frustrating. The car lacks proper LSD and suspension tuning to truly do well against much more agile MX5s in that class. Without a proper LSD you are definitely going to want a bigger front bar or you will be laying down big black stripes on inside wheel all the time if you are an agressive/fast AX driver. Did I say stock VLSD sucks? Man does it ever suck! I think thats the one thing that keeps the 370Z from doing well in Stock classes. Sure there is one hot shoe who podiumed at nationals but I'd put money on him being faster in a national class MX5. Also beware that AX seems to accelerate VLSD degradation in performance. Mine after a few AX days really seemed to fall off.

I haven't podiumed...yet. Last year was the first season I've ever run on R-comps and the first event we did with the shocks. Both the car and driver are much better sorted now and anything less than a podium finish would be a big disappointment for this season.

Also to emphasize what Shamu said, get 295's square for your Hoosiers, even with the 9"/10" sport wheels. Also I would recommend reconsidering the stillen bar and going up to the hotchkis because of the traction issues he talked about.

ChrisSlicks · 08-09-2011, 09:53 PM

Street tire -> Stillen
R-comp -> Hotchkis

The Hotchkis is too much for a street tire IMO, especially in a front only application. I ran 6 months that way and hated it.

track370 · 08-11-2011, 11:07 AM

Awesome detailed information and very helpful from all of you, especially from you shamu.

Its funny how u bring up how sloppy the z is in stock form shamu. Its the first stock car I've ever done any track or autocross with so I was prepared and expected things to not even be close to the same level or similar at all. I don't know how it compares to others, maybe the z is especially sloppy in stock form (anyone with experience with autoXing other stock cars chime in please!). I just had this discussion a few days ago with my buddy when he asked me how it compares. Its completely different, and I wasn't expecting it to compare or be at that level so I wouldn't go as far as saying its no fun, it definitly is, but the responsiveness/transient behaviour, balance, acceleration, braking... everything is just way off from an formula sae car but I think its inherent to expect it to be. Also not having 4 way dampers, front and rear adjustable bars, spring rates, camber shims, ackerman brackets, etc to tune with on the fly between runs is a huge downside definitely. Saying it that way makes me rethink what I'm doing trying to keep the car in stock form when I could probably have a lot more fun with it if I was able to step out of stock. Haha, its just I don't even want to see how much a set of good dampers, a few spring rates, adjustable suspension linkages, front/rear bars, diff, etc start to cost for this car.

But I think an adjustable 2way damper is inevitable and will be a very near upgrade (outside of my front bar), but I'm going to give it at least one track day and a couple of autox before the investment.

As for the bar discussion. Can the car in stock form just on rcomps get benefits from using just a front hotchkis? I feel with a stock loose rear end and the already prevelant understeer it would be difficult for front end grip having just a front bar that stiff. Does switching to rcomps really play that nice with this setup? Maybe they are less load sensitive than I thought they would be and that's why :/ That would be very suprising to me, especially cause the z isn't that light. I just figured even on rcomps with a stock car the stillen would have enough stiffness in it to balance that fine line of stiffening up just one end of the car enough before u start having diminishing returns and losing time. Has anyone on here ran front hotchkis and rcomps with an otherwise stock stepup at the track or autox? Or are u front hotchkis guys also running other mods(like a rear bar, different spring rates, dampers, etc)?

Thanks a bunch and I enjoy the conversation greatly. This is all great information for someone just getting started with autox and track days in a z. At least for me it is.

cossie1600 · 08-11-2011, 11:31 AM

my last six autox car were stock rx8, new prius, stock c6 corvette, stock 350z, miata, 996 911. they all lean up to a certain point. its not fun to drive a car that leans a lot, but you can get used to it if you try. i change cars every 24 to 30 months, so i refuse to modify anything as it gets too expensive. unless you have a big budget, any bsp build will cost you at least 7k. its worth it to some people.

oh btw the 370 is not sloppy compare to my older cars. i would say the miata/rx8 were the easiest to drive (it actually leans more), the 370 is definitely 2nd or 3rd. its better than the corvette and 350. i give it a slight edge over the sti

track370 · 08-21-2011, 08:30 PM

got a chance to put my stillen swaybar in this weekend. What a difference it makes to the overall roll of the car (middle setting at the moment). I was definitely not expecting such a drastic difference, considering everyone saying its a mild bar. Definitely a much more responsive car in transient conditions. Haven't had a chance to push hard enough to see how much worse it made the understeer, but I can definitely see benefits in the overall response and driveability. Really happy with the upgrade and I definitely can see gains in the next autocross coming from this. Hopefully I can get some time next weekend to play with the adjustments and see how much of a difference I feel between the adjustable settings.

08-09-2011, 07:57 AM	#17 (permalink)
AutoX Z Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 314 Drives: 370Z Base, Sport Rep Power: 16	They don't make the Kuhmos in the correct sizes for the 370 so you're stuck with A6's if you want an autox rcomp. __________________ 2013 SCCA Solo National Champion VVV For Sale VVV

08-09-2011, 02:24 PM	#20 (permalink)
Shamu A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Nor Cal Posts: 1,059 Drives: 370Z Racecar Rep Power: 19	If you stay in C Stock you dont have much you can do. As mentioned front Swaybar, Shocks, cat back exhaust system and tires are only real changes. You will be camber limited in C Stock. You cant change stock offsets more than .25. These cars turn well so I wouldnt rule out front bar. In stockish base car you will want roll stiffness espeically if you are camber challenged. A6 is only choice for AX if you are serious. I will say I ran A6 on track and they were much tougher than I had suspected. I ran two full track days and put 60 autocross runs on my fiorst set of A6's and they still have tread! I'm no wall flower either. I have spun car numerous times in AX, spun tires out of turns etc. My lap times were similar on both A6 and R6. A6 would get a little greasy towards end of hot session in 80 degree wheather. Next step down would be Kuhmo 710 or Hankook 214. You not going to get ideal size in these tires however. Avoid the BFG r1 if AX is your gig as they need heat to work. anything under these will not be competitive in C Stock. Nittos, Toyos, etc treaded DOT R's just dont cut it in AX as they require higher operating temps and just dont stick as well as slick DOT tires. Street tirees. You might have a local street tire class you can run. If that is the case and they allow 140 Treadwear. Bridgestone re11, Yokohama Advan a008, Hankook RS3 are some of the top tires. I run cheap $200 a tire Nitto NTO5's and they are fine for street tire. I run 285 rear and 275 front. I use 43 front and 40 rear for those street tires. But I hate street tires in AX. I dont like abusing my street tires. Back to A6. You can run 295 hooiser A6 up front on stock 9.5 and I think most of the C Stock guys run 295 on 10.5 back too. Because I run BSP and have a lot more freedom with suspension I run 315 rear and 295 front and car turns like there is no tomrrow. Im rather biased but I cant stand running the 370Z stock in AX. Even my Nismo was frustrating. The car lacks proper LSD and suspension tuning to truly do well against much more agile MX5s in that class. Without a proper LSD you are definitely going to want a bigger front bar or you will be laying down big black stripes on inside wheel all the time if you are an agressive/fast AX driver. Did I say stock VLSD sucks? Man does it ever suck! I think thats the one thing that keeps the 370Z from doing well in Stock classes. Sure there is one hot shoe who podiumed at nationals but I'd put money on him being faster in a national class MX5. Also beware that AX seems to accelerate VLSD degradation in performance. Mine after a few AX days really seemed to fall off. It took a lot of work just to tune out all the crappy dynamics of stock Nismo for my car to finally feel good in AX. I cant imagine driving a sloppy base 370Z in AX would be much fun if you are used to open wheel cars. They are very sloppy cars in stock form. Guess with a real good damper you could tune the car to work a little better. Good luck! Keep us updated to your progress! __________________ Grant Last edited by Shamu; 08-09-2011 at 02:32 PM.

08-09-2011, 09:53 PM	#23 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	Street tire -> Stillen R-comp -> Hotchkis The Hotchkis is too much for a street tire IMO, especially in a front only application. I ran 6 months that way and hated it. __________________ Hotchkis ARB \| Stillen CAI \| Art Pipes \| Berk CBE \| Stillen AP Racing Brakes \| AE Performance Oil Cooler \| BC Racing ER Coilovers \| Doran Control Arms

08-11-2011, 11:31 AM	#25 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	my last six autox car were stock rx8, new prius, stock c6 corvette, stock 350z, miata, 996 911. they all lean up to a certain point. its not fun to drive a car that leans a lot, but you can get used to it if you try. i change cars every 24 to 30 months, so i refuse to modify anything as it gets too expensive. unless you have a big budget, any bsp build will cost you at least 7k. its worth it to some people. oh btw the 370 is not sloppy compare to my older cars. i would say the miata/rx8 were the easiest to drive (it actually leans more), the 370 is definitely 2nd or 3rd. its better than the corvette and 350. i give it a slight edge over the sti Last edited by cossie1600; 08-11-2011 at 11:38 AM.

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08-08-2011, 09:48 PM	#16 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	If I recall correctly, the size the V710s come in for the 370 is crazy expensive compare to all the other size too. I really did like my V710s, but I couldn't believe how my times dropped after 4 events. In all seriousness, you might want to try a couple more times before you drop money into something that you have only tried once. You know how many people quit after the first four or five events. Waking up early on Sunday for 5 runs is not everyone's cup of tea, also track day is the next step for a lot of people too. Out of the 20 novices I see every year at each event, I would say only 2-3 stay on to be full timers.

08-09-2011, 08:58 AM	#18 (permalink)
track370 Base Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: North Jersey Posts: 12 Drives: 2010 370 Blk MT Sprt Rep Power: 15	Thank you all so much for all the information. Will be very helpful in making my decision. I plan on getting a slick in another two events or so. I'm definitly going to stick with autocross and only get more deeply involved in track days/weekends as my expendable income increases for sure I've designed, built, and raced 5 open wheel fsae cars in the past. And not just being a member on the team but being the head design engineer for 4 of those years, so I can say racing is definitly a huge part of me, hence also purchasing my z for this purpose so chances are pretty slim I would quit after a few events Once again, this forum is immensely helpful and I appreciate all the feedback from everyone! Picked up the stillen front anti last night. I think its conservativeness vs a hotch was the right thing to do if I'm planning on staying C stock and not planning on modding more suspension than that for a while.

08-09-2011, 09:24 AM	#19 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	Hope to run with you at the Tri-State then (minus the R comps)

08-09-2011, 03:09 PM	#21 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	i dont have any problems autoxing my car stock, but i run in a street tire pax class so i have different standards than the a6 guys. the modded cars and slicks are nice, but street tires can be challenging in their own rights on a front heavy car like the z.

08-11-2011, 11:07 AM	#24 (permalink)
track370 Base Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: North Jersey Posts: 12 Drives: 2010 370 Blk MT Sprt Rep Power: 15	Awesome detailed information and very helpful from all of you, especially from you shamu. Its funny how u bring up how sloppy the z is in stock form shamu. Its the first stock car I've ever done any track or autocross with so I was prepared and expected things to not even be close to the same level or similar at all. I don't know how it compares to others, maybe the z is especially sloppy in stock form (anyone with experience with autoXing other stock cars chime in please!). I just had this discussion a few days ago with my buddy when he asked me how it compares. Its completely different, and I wasn't expecting it to compare or be at that level so I wouldn't go as far as saying its no fun, it definitly is, but the responsiveness/transient behaviour, balance, acceleration, braking... everything is just way off from an formula sae car but I think its inherent to expect it to be. Also not having 4 way dampers, front and rear adjustable bars, spring rates, camber shims, ackerman brackets, etc to tune with on the fly between runs is a huge downside definitely. Saying it that way makes me rethink what I'm doing trying to keep the car in stock form when I could probably have a lot more fun with it if I was able to step out of stock. Haha, its just I don't even want to see how much a set of good dampers, a few spring rates, adjustable suspension linkages, front/rear bars, diff, etc start to cost for this car. But I think an adjustable 2way damper is inevitable and will be a very near upgrade (outside of my front bar), but I'm going to give it at least one track day and a couple of autox before the investment. As for the bar discussion. Can the car in stock form just on rcomps get benefits from using just a front hotchkis? I feel with a stock loose rear end and the already prevelant understeer it would be difficult for front end grip having just a front bar that stiff. Does switching to rcomps really play that nice with this setup? Maybe they are less load sensitive than I thought they would be and that's why :/ That would be very suprising to me, especially cause the z isn't that light. I just figured even on rcomps with a stock car the stillen would have enough stiffness in it to balance that fine line of stiffening up just one end of the car enough before u start having diminishing returns and losing time. Has anyone on here ran front hotchkis and rcomps with an otherwise stock stepup at the track or autox? Or are u front hotchkis guys also running other mods(like a rear bar, different spring rates, dampers, etc)? Thanks a bunch and I enjoy the conversation greatly. This is all great information for someone just getting started with autox and track days in a z. At least for me it is.

08-21-2011, 08:30 PM	#26 (permalink)
track370 Base Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: North Jersey Posts: 12 Drives: 2010 370 Blk MT Sprt Rep Power: 15	got a chance to put my stillen swaybar in this weekend. What a difference it makes to the overall roll of the car (middle setting at the moment). I was definitely not expecting such a drastic difference, considering everyone saying its a mild bar. Definitely a much more responsive car in transient conditions. Haven't had a chance to push hard enough to see how much worse it made the understeer, but I can definitely see benefits in the overall response and driveability. Really happy with the upgrade and I definitely can see gains in the next autocross coming from this. Hopefully I can get some time next weekend to play with the adjustments and see how much of a difference I feel between the adjustable settings.