Ice mode solution?

cossie1600 · 07-12-2011, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

I would love to permanently ditch BA but I don't think it is possible.

It's not like we are asking for race caliber ABS systems here, just asking for an ABS system that isn't out to kill the vehicle's occupants. The ABS computer in the 350Z/G35 never had these serious issues, the braking was 100% reliable.

ABS might have been fine, but the hose wasn't very good.... YouTube - ‪0507 350z Pocono North Big Spin No Brakes‬&rlm;

ChrisSlicks · 07-13-2011, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

ABS might have been fine, but the hose wasn't very good.... YouTube - ‪0507 350z Pocono North Big Spin No Brakes‬&rlm;

Wow, that was scary. Yes, replacing the stock hoses is always a good idea. I typically replace them every couple of years thereafter on cars that see track duty.

Mike · 07-13-2011, 08:31 AM

I hadn't experienced it before my last couple events, but I'm currently running XP-12s and stoptech trophys front and rear and have been running my AD-08s instead of R compounds due to a spin and cording a tire. I have gotten ice mode once or twice, but mostly on the street tires, I was trying to threshold brake anyways and stay completely out of ABS because I've got way too much pad for the street tires.

Back on R compounds for next week though! First time getting to use the new brakes and R compounds, woo hoo!!!

cossie1600 · 07-13-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

Wow, that was scary. Yes, replacing the stock hoses is always a good idea. I typically replace them every couple of years thereafter on cars that see track duty.

Yeah I learned my lesson. The 370 with sport is a little bit better as the line going to the caliper is metal. The 350 had the rubber hose with the metal ends.

Shamu · 07-13-2011, 02:54 PM

I still contend the Car and Driver crash was not a brake fade issue. It was more likely ice mode with somone who had never expereinced this Ice mode issue to extent it happens with 370Z.

C&D wrote it off as car just needing differnt pads. I suspect the car would have been just as bad with upgraded Nismo pads.

I have driven a lot of cars with ABS on the track and the system in 370Z is the worst by far I have ever expereinced. The system releases far too aggressively and doesnt recover quickly enough.

I truly worry about inexpereinced drivers expereincing this issue as they could easily panic and end up hurting themselves and others.

ChrisSlicks · 07-13-2011, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

I still contend the Car and Driver crash was not a brake fade issue. It was more likely ice mode with somone who had never expereinced this Ice mode issue to extent it happens with 370Z.

C&D wrote it off as car just needing differnt pads. I suspect the car would have been just as bad with upgraded Nismo pads.

I have driven a lot of cars with ABS on the track and the system in 370Z is the worst by far I have ever expereinced. The system releases far too aggressively and doesnt recover quickly enough.

I truly worry about inexpereinced drivers expereincing this issue as they could easily panic and end up hurting themselves and others.

I thought that at first as well, but they also said the pads wore down to the backing plates and the pedal went to the floor indicating they boiled the fluid (due to having no pad material to insulate the caliper).

cossie1600 · 07-13-2011, 04:02 PM

i am with chris. you got to be a complete newbie to not know the difference between ice mode and pad fade. ice mode isnt new, they have been around many cars.

chuckd05 · 07-20-2011, 01:22 AM

Is anyone contemplating trying to experiment with the vacuum idea?

ChrisSlicks · 07-20-2011, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckd05

Is anyone contemplating trying to experiment with the vacuum idea?

No, I have plenty of vacuum. I double tap the brake pedal after long straights to make sure of it, gives enough time for vacuum to build off throttle and gives you a nice firm pedal. The ABS system in our cars doesn't require any vacuum, lack of vacuum just results in extra pedal travel and effort.

fritz · 07-22-2011, 05:43 AM

ChrisSlicks wrote:

No, I have plenty of vacuum. I double tap the brake pedal after long straights to make sure of it, gives enough time for vacuum to build off throttle and gives you a nice firm pedal. The ABS system in our cars doesn't require any vacuum, lack of vacuum just results in extra pedal travel and effort.

I Think you've got that up-side-down or typos, ChrisSlicks. ... for example a lack of vac "just results in extra pedal travel ...etc". Nope, it results in less travel and absolutely huge driver effort (over-servo'd on our cars, like a truck almost!)

Recommended reading:
Any paper on Brake Assist (ABS related) from Bosch or Teves or M-B or BMW or ? (same thing on Germanic cars) most or all of which have an "accumulator" (of pressure).

Now read the Japanese equiv by Masahiro Hara et al. Hard to find, but just Google "9%-S2-P-17" or "98-S2-P-17". It is not hard to understand.

(And is this BA nonsense eating up Vac reserves.......? It certainly will if
you try to Heel and Toe in serious (competition) situations....on our cars the H&T will activate BA to make the idea a waste. Thank God for Sychro-Rev-Match ......

I'll wager that USA systems copy the Japan ideas....hence the problems ???
....Interested to see what Lotus do as they have a "Japanese" relationship".

Most if not all systems conceal the BA pressure sensitive switching inside the ABS unit. (and in the case of VW have had severe expense problems just out of warranties).
Nissan's BA pressure switching is hidden in that ABS unit too.

Sooner or later I'll find a means to dump this truly awful Brake Assist nonsense.

Afterthought: Winners these days usually left foot brake and pedal juggling must include not touching the brake pedal 'til it's actually used. That will guzzle up the Vac in quick time, especially as BA would be in continuous activation from a twitching foot !!!

Sooner or later, BA Bye Bye,

Fritz

ResIpsa · 07-27-2011, 03:46 PM

Question. Has anyone on this forum experienced ice mode after installing brake cooling ducts?

travisjb · 07-27-2011, 09:11 PM

yes

ChrisSlicks · 07-27-2011, 09:42 PM

I need cooling ducts as my AP Racing rotors are starting to crack from heat fatigue, but that's besides the point. It can happen hot or cold, the ABS controller just can't keep up with the changing variables of weight transfer, pad fade and altering surfaces. The best combative solution I've found is to keep the car reasonably stiff (sorry stock guys), don't run a ridiculously aggressive bite pad (but must be high temperature), minimize revs on downshift to minimize engine braking (shift later), and move the brake bias forward slightly by running a slightly less aggressive rear compound compared to the front. If I follow that recipe I don't get ice mode.

cossie1600 · 07-28-2011, 01:25 AM

I went from XP10 to XP8 on my stock car, I still get them, just not as bad

ChrisSlicks · 07-28-2011, 07:09 AM

I can too if I don't follow the rest of the recipe.

07-13-2011, 08:31 AM	#108 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2186	I hadn't experienced it before my last couple events, but I'm currently running XP-12s and stoptech trophys front and rear and have been running my AD-08s instead of R compounds due to a spin and cording a tire. I have gotten ice mode once or twice, but mostly on the street tires, I was trying to threshold brake anyways and stay completely out of ABS because I've got way too much pad for the street tires. Back on R compounds for next week though! First time getting to use the new brakes and R compounds, woo hoo!!! __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

07-13-2011, 02:54 PM	#110 (permalink)
Shamu A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Nor Cal Posts: 1,059 Drives: 370Z Racecar Rep Power: 19	I still contend the Car and Driver crash was not a brake fade issue. It was more likely ice mode with somone who had never expereinced this Ice mode issue to extent it happens with 370Z. C&D wrote it off as car just needing differnt pads. I suspect the car would have been just as bad with upgraded Nismo pads. I have driven a lot of cars with ABS on the track and the system in 370Z is the worst by far I have ever expereinced. The system releases far too aggressively and doesnt recover quickly enough. I truly worry about inexpereinced drivers expereincing this issue as they could easily panic and end up hurting themselves and others. __________________ Grant

07-20-2011, 01:22 AM	#113 (permalink)
chuckd05 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NY Posts: 2,391 Drives: No longer a Z Rep Power: 20	Is anyone contemplating trying to experiment with the vacuum idea? __________________ 09 370Z 6M PW - FBO Best 1/4 mile = 12.926 @ 109 SOLD -- 08 BMW 135i - FBO 12.1@120mph SOLD -- white 09 e92 335 Coupe Mtech - 11.9 @ 119 :-)

07-27-2011, 03:46 PM	#116 (permalink)
ResIpsa Track Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 564 Drives: 09 RACING HEN Rep Power: 338	Question. Has anyone on this forum experienced ice mode after installing brake cooling ducts? __________________ The Reed Law Firm; Michael Fasano VA Attorney and Counselor at Law: A Virginia Traffic, Criminal, and Family Lawyer.https://reedlawva.com/

07-27-2011, 09:11 PM	#117 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 188	yes __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

07-13-2011, 04:02 PM	#112 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	i am with chris. you got to be a complete newbie to not know the difference between ice mode and pad fade. ice mode isnt new, they have been around many cars.

07-22-2011, 05:43 AM	#115 (permalink)
fritz Base Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Andorre Posts: 90 Drives: 2010 370Z M6 Rep Power: 16	ChrisSlicks wrote: No, I have plenty of vacuum. I double tap the brake pedal after long straights to make sure of it, gives enough time for vacuum to build off throttle and gives you a nice firm pedal. The ABS system in our cars doesn't require any vacuum, lack of vacuum just results in extra pedal travel and effort. I Think you've got that up-side-down or typos, ChrisSlicks. ... for example a lack of vac "just results in extra pedal travel ...etc". Nope, it results in less travel and absolutely huge driver effort (over-servo'd on our cars, like a truck almost!) Recommended reading: Any paper on Brake Assist (ABS related) from Bosch or Teves or M-B or BMW or ? (same thing on Germanic cars) most or all of which have an "accumulator" (of pressure). Now read the Japanese equiv by Masahiro Hara et al. Hard to find, but just Google "9%-S2-P-17" or "98-S2-P-17". It is not hard to understand. (And is this BA nonsense eating up Vac reserves.......? It certainly will if you try to Heel and Toe in serious (competition) situations....on our cars the H&T will activate BA to make the idea a waste. Thank God for Sychro-Rev-Match ...... I'll wager that USA systems copy the Japan ideas....hence the problems ??? ....Interested to see what Lotus do as they have a "Japanese" relationship". Most if not all systems conceal the BA pressure sensitive switching inside the ABS unit. (and in the case of VW have had severe expense problems just out of warranties). Nissan's BA pressure switching is hidden in that ABS unit too. Sooner or later I'll find a means to dump this truly awful Brake Assist nonsense. Afterthought: Winners these days usually left foot brake and pedal juggling must include not touching the brake pedal 'til it's actually used. That will guzzle up the Vac in quick time, especially as BA would be in continuous activation from a twitching foot !!! Sooner or later, BA Bye Bye, Fritz

07-27-2011, 09:42 PM	#118 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	I need cooling ducts as my AP Racing rotors are starting to crack from heat fatigue, but that's besides the point. It can happen hot or cold, the ABS controller just can't keep up with the changing variables of weight transfer, pad fade and altering surfaces. The best combative solution I've found is to keep the car reasonably stiff (sorry stock guys), don't run a ridiculously aggressive bite pad (but must be high temperature), minimize revs on downshift to minimize engine braking (shift later), and move the brake bias forward slightly by running a slightly less aggressive rear compound compared to the front. If I follow that recipe I don't get ice mode. __________________ Hotchkis ARB \| Stillen CAI \| Art Pipes \| Berk CBE \| Stillen AP Racing Brakes \| AE Performance Oil Cooler \| BC Racing ER Coilovers \| Doran Control Arms

07-28-2011, 01:25 AM	#119 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	I went from XP10 to XP8 on my stock car, I still get them, just not as bad

07-28-2011, 07:09 AM	#120 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	I can too if I don't follow the rest of the recipe. __________________ Hotchkis ARB \| Stillen CAI \| Art Pipes \| Berk CBE \| Stillen AP Racing Brakes \| AE Performance Oil Cooler \| BC Racing ER Coilovers \| Doran Control Arms

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