Most run the Carbtech's X10 front and X8 rear. A few run X12 front and X10 rear.

I'm somewhat new to tracking in general
I'm running into an issue where I feel like ABS is kicking in waaaaay too early under heavy braking and I can feel the drumming in the wheels. Is that what's considered ICE mode?
Always end up seeing nasty marks on my rotors whenever that happens

My setup is RE-71Rs - XP10 - XP8

Ice Mode is when you have a solid brake pedal and no brakes. :eek: Usually happens on entry with a bump to up step the ABS.

I have the same pad combo. On hard braking. It feels like the pads are chewing through the rotors, but they are not. Is that the drumming you're feeling? What rotors are you running?

yeah it feels like somethings "pumping" against the rotors or something. Currently running Z1 2 piece front rotors and z1 perf rear rotors
I end up with pretty nasty marks on my rotors.

I'm thinking that maybe I'm just braking too hard, these carbotechs are like on-off switches unlike the club racers I'm running on the s2k

Drumming feeling is most likely the ABS doing its thing, grip, release, grip, release, over and over very quickly.

yup, that's what I'm thinking, but it's kicking in WAY too early, sometimes when I barely step on it

There is a lot of info in this thread... I read through the first 5 or so pages and I have a question for everyone: Does this only happen around turns, or in complete straights? We write software for ABS modules, and lateral acceleration factors somewhat heavily into the algorithm. If this is an issue when primarily in the turns, I'm curious if disconnecting the yaw sensor would make this go away.

almost all of the HEAVY braking is done on the straight away

Yep heavy braking done while the car is still straight, and trailing off going into the turn apex if braking late. Not sure if doing the yaw switch mod would alleviate this since the ABS sensors are still reading each individual wheel speed, and when you are braking into a turn the outside wheels are turning faster than the inside wheels. I'm sure the makes the algorithm a tad more complicated to write.

Sorry, I meant to say disabling the yaw sensor and the ABS as well.

Anyone got any solves for this? or did all y'all crash??? I saw that ECUTek tune and maybe a vacuum to the breaks may help but I haven't seen anyone say "fixed!"

Just trying to bump an old thread as I plan on tracking the car soon and putting new brake pads on it...

Yaw switch fixed my problem

Some get it. And some don't. You have to track it to find out.

Try winmax pads

ive dealt with ice mode quite a bit... hard braking will lock up the rears 1st... since the fronts are still rolling, ice mode......

the best way (using carbotechs) is to back it off and use more inertial into as many turns as possible.... hammer on throttle until the corner will keep this problem surfacing,,, and you might blow a brake sensor, which dumps you into limp mode until you fix it.

I recently replaced all 4 calipers on my car and went with less aggressive pads, everything did get better.

I've been struggling with ice mode ever since I put in my Nismo Pro 2-Way diff. I'm taking the extreme approach and disabling ABS the next time I'm out to see if I can make that work. I hear that the brake bias will make it difficult, so I may also try putting in a bias adjuster to see if I can run without ABS with better control. I'm guessing a full Bosch ABS is the only 100% solution, but that's big $$.

I drive a 350Z and had 'ice mode' issues too. My solution was to completely remove ABS from the car and install a proportioning valve for the rears. Tracking is just a hobby for me and this solution works best for peace of mind and performance.

I did try a number of other brake pads before going to the extreme of ABS removal. A wreck will help make that decision faster for you.. :)

Something like this?

https://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/24-5555

I guess I am one of the lucky ones that's never run into this, I feel bad for you guys. I think I'm just not as hard on the brakes as I could be.

Yes. That’s it. Just need to figure out the piping necessary. I found posts on here that show examples. I’ll give it a shot and report back with pics. Assuming I pull it off.

Yes. And although they do not recommend it, you can get the cable/dial accessory so that you can locate the adjuster inside the cabin. I used some locktite on mine and it works. Takes some getting used to with the slack -but easier than burying your hand in the engine bay to get a turn in.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Wilwood/950/3...SABEgLVrvD_BwE

Great idea. Thanks for the help. I would rather adjust while on track.

Reviving this thread. I know Austin Hertel, he races in the same series as I do (with another car), but I built a "clubsport" Nismo that's a hardcore track car. The MK60 isn't an option for me because it deletes all other electronic functions like speedo/tach/etc. etc. The only way to do MK60 and keep the other OE stuff is to install an additional 4 wheel speed sensors and run BOTH ABS setups, which is ridiculous as well, and not really feasible for a street car.

My question is, the Bosch M5 Clubsport kit, is also available for our cars. Can that be installed and still keep use of all other OE functions? That setup, while still expensive, would be worth it IMO if you can still retain the other OE functions (speedo, etc.). The Bosch M5 Clubsport is like 7K. Yes, it's crazy expensive, but alot less expensive than putting my Nismo into a wall.

I had my car lockup, yes, lockup the front wheels going into a corner where you have a slight bit of wheel in the car. It doesn't like that at all. Instead of giving me ABS pules, or Ice Mode, which it's done in that same corner before, this time, it just went to straight lockup, and torched my right front tire. That is some crazy ****. I own all kinds of track cars, and this is by far the worst ABS I've ever driven on. I have the right size tires F/R, have the right stagger in rear pads, all the best brake cooling. Years and years of driving and racing, so I know how to brake. What this means is that if you aren't perfect, which nobody is from time to time, then this will bite you, bad. That's just not an acceptable outcome, because if it happended at another track, I'd have been in a wall.

Lost a front splitter on my autox car earlier this year for exactly this reason. Came in hard on a tight 180, hit a small bump and immediate lockup. Ended up in the uneven dirt off the pavement where the splitter dug in and broke into pieces. I just don't understand why an abs system that behaves this way makes any sense.

Out of curiousity, which MK60 units are people using? From what I found the version of the unit you want (the programmable one), is nearly impossible to get anywhere. Is there a reliable source to get them from still?

Yeah, it's so ridiculous. Ice mode is one thing, I can still get that on my 991.2 GT3 for christ's sake, but this is a whole different level of stupid programming. My FRS race car uses OE ABS, and it's literally the best OE ABS I've ever used on track, better than BMW, Porsche, etc. So the whole "it's an affordable" sports car is an invalid excuse. I wonder if the 400Z has a better OE system that we can use. It's literally the exact same chassis and underpinnings. Perhaps they finally upgraded it and it's possible to use in our cars.

Contact these guys, they sell a Continental/Teves motorsport version of the MK60 for $3375 that comes with a full harness and everything. Turn-key. If my car wasn't such a nice, low mileage street car, I'd do it in an instant.

https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/

Douglas Wardell @ Racing Harness Technology

I would not hold out any hope of the electronic systems in the 2023 Z being better for track driving.

HotrodZ has had it done. It took him forever to get the parts. Had to get them from Germany and it took a long while. He is in the testing phase of his car now. Had issues with overheating, working on that at the moment.

The best solution i can think of lies in brake management and added rear downforce to fight rear lockups... downforce is definitely your friend...

There are some brake "tuning" solutions to limit the amount of brake force to the rear( like a manifold or inline system where you can manually dial back the brake pressure. you can also meter it with different brake pad types, i.e. carbotech 8s in the front and something much less grippy but race durable in the rear.

The other, more obvious solution is to manage brake inputs to limit the effect.

On open track, I had Carbotech 10s and 8s. I found that i had some rear lock ups.. after a few laps the ice mode decided to join the party and sent me off the track a few times.

backing off my brake inputs and "feeling for" what i could get away with (aggressive braking-wise) helped me stay in a pocket of functionality.

But, i noticed more rear bias than necessary on the pads.

my solution was foot to pedal managing and flowing through the courses a bit more efficiently made it better, but considered a bias control manifold...

I since turbo'ed the car and this more of a grenade at that level of abuse. im considering buying another Z for a stripped down built na track build. but thats down the track.. that ice garbage will just get eliminated with a haltech ecu/

idk if anyone said in this thread but you can retrofit a mk60 from the e46 m3 and ive heard it'll fix that solution. also i used to go into ice mode alot evever since i started using slicks, ive found that building pressure in the pedal before smashing it down helps.

That’s interesting that you’ve eliminated ice mode while having matched front and rear pads. Seems like most have a staggered pad to reduce rear lockup and shift the braking power towards the front.


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You are correct. Since most of the braking is done on the fronts. I run SRF without brake ducts. Run the yaw delete and haven’t had any issues with ice mode

Heat isn't the issue for me. I get ice mode more at autocross than at the track, and i can replicate it on the street, going from 100% throttle to 100% brake immediately and it goes ice mode.

ABS is the parent software governing ice mode..

its a traction and wheel slip issue... it has nothing to do with the mechanical brake system itself. The car software is basically tracking wheel slip via sensors and " thinks" you are on ice. Its attempting to limit brake input in order to help you gain control in an ice situation (because we all love driving our sports cars in the ice, apparently.)

You can eliminate Ice mode by pulling the ABS.. but you default brake bias to 50/50 and... you no longer have abs.

You are fighting the ECU... there are many different forms of mitigation, but 100% mitigation, is to toss the oem ecu, and add an aftermarket stand-alone system

What's up guys, been awhile haha. I don't really get on here much, just check in from time to time. If you guys want the fix to this problem hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I have ripped out the factory abs stuff and installed the MK60 system awhile back.

To be clear here though, Ice mode is when you go to brake and your pedal is rock solid and the car is not stopping. Ice mode is not locking up the front or rear wheels and skidding across the pavement. If you are locking up wheels this needs to be fixed first, usually a mismatch in pad combo or driving style. Th mk60 is not going to be as good as the 7K bosch system mentioned but for around $2k-$3k the mk60 will at least be predictable and controllable.

Again, I have a whole write up and pdf document I can send you on what is needed, cost, how to install, wiring diagram and everything, just hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I should be able to shoot you in the right direction if you are serious about it, or have any other track related Z questions. I've been in the game for a good while now haha.

Well, even with a proper pad combo (more front biased), AP Racing BBK (front) and good braking technique, proper tire sizes, and only 200TW tires, you simply cannot drive aggressively without wheels locking up on a stiff suspension/track oriented setup. I flat spotted a set of front tires again this weekend at NCM. The guys at Counterspace told me the car 100% needs to have less rear brake pad bias, via less aggressive pad, for track use. So that's what I've current done.

The system def. works better since the AP front kit install, but certain brake zones can exacerbate the issue.

The ABS is just outright dangerous for anybody that is a good driver and really wants to push this car. I make sure to give myself tons of room to the cars in front of me as a further precaution. Still waiting on another forum member to come through with their "black box" fix to allow OE wheels speed sensors and full dash electronics to work. For a street/DE car, it's just not feasible to delete the tach or speedo functions, and have to add a full second set of sensors. No reason this can't be fixed electronically.

This is just a thought, I am working with a sim instructor, he also helps me with my tracking. He is currently working with me to make sure I do not engage ABS in the sim. Now I start tracking in a month and I am going to work on that idea. Its been a bit of adjustment in sim racing, but I will find out.

Again, its just a thought, maybe a different approach...

my 2 cents...

:driving:

That's good in theory, but until you actually pilot this car, and the ABS program at speed, you will learn long term you will never be perfect enough to stay within the programming limits of the car, if you get fast enough, or your setup is aggressive.

I've got like 6 track/race cars, and this is by far the worst ABS system I've ever used. I don't have a problem with the ABS, I have a problem with the limit programming it has that locks wheels up in certain situtations. That is something that no decent sports car I've ever driven does.

I make sure my tire diameters and brake compounds are appropriate for all my other cars to avoid ice mode and overly intrusive abs, but this lockup issue is totally unacceptable. Asking people to go to a track and drive fast, and tell them to "learn to brake around this situation" is not a solution. This is why so many cars end up crashed, and why even more probably avoid driving this car on track altogether.

Just an FYI, I do track my Z, have about 20-25 events on it. Sounds as if you have done a lot more tracking in different cars over the years. That is great to hear. I still learning and playing on this stuff The other problem I have - no butt feel and it takes me time to understand what I am being told.

So anything you say, I will review and think on it. Thanks for the input.

So where to you track at, just wondering, maybe we can meet up at an event.

:driving::tiphat: