delamination of front tires

danegrey · 09-17-2022, 08:00 PM

ok, I need some help understanding what happen.
It really has me confused, since I do not want to have it happen again.

The Basics
Tires -Falken AZENIS RT660 - 275/35 18
Wheels - ENKEI RPF1 18X10.5 +15
Tires were new as to start of the year.
Tires had 10 1/2 hours of track time
Trips to cleveland oh and Pittsburgh
Drive to the track on the tires, do not change

Alignment Before
Left Front Camber -2.6 / Caster 6.1 / Toe - 0.0
RIGHT Camber -2.6 / Caster 6.1 / Toe - 0.0
Front Total Toe 0 / Steer Ahead 0
Left Rear Camber -2.3 / Toe .03
Left Rear Camber -2.4 / Toe -.01
I have run this Alignment for 2 events before this one.
Check tires after each event, before this event everything looked ok

Tire pressures - always aim for when I come off the track F36/R34
so the starting pressure varies, from session to session
Front starting can be 31-32
rear starting can be 28-30

Last track day when this occurred last 2 sessions starting was
LF 31 RF 20 LR 29 RR 28

The new Alignment starting now:
Left Front Camber -2.2 / Caster 6.3 / Toe - .11
RIGHT Camber -2.1 / Caster 6.2 / Toe - 0.08
Front Total Toe .2 / Steer Ahead 0.01
Left Rear Camber -2.5 / Toe .06
Right Rear Camber -2.6 / Toe -.02
Rear Total Toe .08 / Thrust Angle 0.02

Going to stay with the current tire pressures.

couple of pics
IMG-5031a.jpg

IMG-5033a.jpg

I am just trying to understand what happen.
learning all the time..

Thanks and Cheers ahead of time

fryzia23 · 09-17-2022, 08:20 PM

With track alignment, driving straight on the highway can wear the inside of tires really quick. My tires would look the same when I drove to the track and back. Probably the addition of negative front toe made it that much worse for you. You just don’t get the full life out of a tire without 2nd of wheels. One thing that can prolong the life, would be to rotate/flip the tires and stick to factory alignment specs for front toe. I finally got the trailer this year.

Rusty · 09-17-2022, 08:20 PM

Is that the inside or outside of the tire? Front or rear?

thekinn · 09-17-2022, 08:42 PM

Hmm. 10 1/2 hours of track time, so that's about 31 20min sessions or like 6-7 track 'days' which doesn't seem like enough to wear them down to cords.
How many street miles did you put on them?
Have you run these Falken tires before?
Assuming square setup, Did you rotate front to rear at all?
..and same questions that Rusty asked..

Just going by what I know which are my Dunlop Star Specs.. I currently have 3k miles total, 6 track days or ~24 sessions and I just rotated them left to right (dismount, flip, remount) and I did rotate front to rear in there too. I've got a good amount of life still in them.

Without the details you provided, my first guess would be too much camber on that wheel. But your specs certainly don't say that.

2011 Nismo#91 · 09-19-2022, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danegrey

ok, I need some help understanding what happen.
It really has me confused, since I do not want to have it happen again.

The Basics

Tires had 10 1/2 hours of track time

I am just trying to understand what happen.
learning all the time..

Assuming that's the outside.
That's what happened.
But anyway, some tracks eat tires more then others. For example one of the close by tracks, NJMP Lightening, will destroy left tires because it has a number of high G right handers and the pavement is very course. Especially the final turn called the "bowl", it's a fast long banked right, I usually do an average of 80mph at 1.2g or so.
My settings:
http://www.the370z.com/members/2011-...3-14-2018.html

You need to stay on top of your tire pressures too. Just knowing your starting temps is good but you need a lot more information, they may be going up to 40+ at the end, you don't know. Measure before, after, and if you can during; have someone measure your times in the pit lane one session. Depending on the situation I could gain almost 15psi from cold start to mid/end session.

Also what's your sway bar and settings? That has a lot of impact on weight transfer and wear.

Final thought, at the track you can just switch the tire sides when it's getting really worn. Yes it will be reverse direction but you'll be able to get a few more session where even if you won't be putting the best times down you can work on technique.

danegrey · 09-19-2022, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

Is that the inside or outside of the tire? Front or rear?

inside of both fronts...

danegrey · 09-19-2022, 12:03 PM

my comments

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekinn

How many street miles did you put on them? - ball park - 6000-6500 miles
Have you run these Falken tires before? - no first year with them.
Assuming square setup - Yes
Did you rotate front to rear at all? No - big mistake
..and same questions that Rusty asked.. Front insides

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011 Nismo#91

You need to stay on top of your tire pressures too. Just knowing your starting temps is good but you need a lot more information, they may be going up to 40+ at the end, you don't know. Measure before, after, and if you can during; have someone measure your times in the pit lane one session. Depending on the situation I could gain almost 15psi from cold start to mid/end session. - I do this, I measure at the start and measure when I get in and adjust before the next session, target, when at the end is F36 / R34

Also what's your sway bar and settings? That has a lot of impact on weight transfer and wear. - White Hopkins - Set Hard front / Soft back, I will have to look as to wear they actually are?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fryzia23

You just don’t get the full life out of a tire without 2nd of wheels. One thing that can prolong the life, would be to rotate/flip the tires and stick to factory alignment specs for front toe. I finally got the trailer this year.- Agree with what your saying, but a goal has been to drive to and from the track

Thanks for the comments and thoughts... Still learning, a lot of hard lessons right now, but it all helps.

Will have to do somewhat of a re-think this off season, in the process of doing that now...

2011 Nismo#91 · 09-20-2022, 08:22 AM

6K miles + 10hrs track time on a DOT tire. Not too unexpected. Though it looks like a lot of wear while there is still some tread left on the rest of the tire. I'd also double check the alignment just to be sure and maybe put in a little toe.

Evildky · 09-20-2022, 05:49 PM

275 on a 10.5 wheel isn't helping, narrower wheel or wider tire will put less wear on the shoulders. And more camber

thekinn · 09-20-2022, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evildky

275 on a 10.5 wheel isn't helping, narrower wheel or wider tire will put less wear on the shoulders. And more camber

Ahh.. I missed that detail. Good point.

danegrey · 09-20-2022, 08:42 PM

Thank everyone for all the information and help. Getting to know things better even at this old age helps

I did email Falken Tire about it and here is there finally thoughts

Quote:

We reviewed your tires with our manager. The isolate wear you are experiencing on the inner edge is due to alignment, specifically toe and a bit of camber. When the tires have negative toe, this pushes the tire direction towards the outside. This puts isolated wear towards the inner edge of the tire. With acceleration and shift of load from front to back, this causes even more negative toe to subject the tires.

We would advise finding a setting that minimizes this negative toe in order to maximize tread life on the tires. Negative toe helps with steering response but decreases tread life. This would affect inner shoulder wear. Positive toe or toe in helps with stability but slows response. This would affect outer shoulder wear. Below is a summary of toe settings.

https://cartreatments.com/what-is-toe/

Camber does affect the edge of the shoulder, however, the rest of the tire will have a progressive wear rate, from shoulder to shoulder.

Impressed with the result, and an understanding of what happen. Yea, the last set of toe was 0, now its on the positive side. We'll just have to see.

The other item is to figure out when I have to drive 300-500 miles to a track. More thinking and planning

danegrey · 09-20-2022, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011 Nismo#91

6K miles + 10hrs track time on a DOT tire. Not too unexpected. Though it looks like a lot of wear while there is still some tread left on the rest of the tire. I'd also double check the alignment just to be sure and maybe put in a little toe.

yes, there is a bit more toe now, and also sounds similar to what I found out from Falken Tires

Rusty · 09-20-2022, 09:28 PM

......and a wider tire to go with those rims, or narrower rims for that size of tire. 275 tire is good with a 9.5" rim.

2011 Nismo#91 · 09-21-2022, 10:39 AM

Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Alignment

danegrey · 09-21-2022, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011 Nismo#91

Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Alignment

Damn, I actually might get smart and understand this stuff.
Thanks for that

09-17-2022, 08:00 PM	#1 (permalink)
danegrey A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Knoxville Age: 71 Posts: 3,190 Drives: 12 370Z BK Cherry M6 Rep Power: 649540	delamination of front tires ok, I need some help understanding what happen. It really has me confused, since I do not want to have it happen again. The Basics Tires -Falken AZENIS RT660 - 275/35 18 Wheels - ENKEI RPF1 18X10.5 +15 Tires were new as to start of the year. Tires had 10 1/2 hours of track time Trips to cleveland oh and Pittsburgh Drive to the track on the tires, do not change Alignment Before Left Front Camber -2.6 / Caster 6.1 / Toe - 0.0 RIGHT Camber -2.6 / Caster 6.1 / Toe - 0.0 Front Total Toe 0 / Steer Ahead 0 Left Rear Camber -2.3 / Toe .03 Left Rear Camber -2.4 / Toe -.01 I have run this Alignment for 2 events before this one. Check tires after each event, before this event everything looked ok Tire pressures - always aim for when I come off the track F36/R34 so the starting pressure varies, from session to session Front starting can be 31-32 rear starting can be 28-30 Last track day when this occurred last 2 sessions starting was LF 31 RF 20 LR 29 RR 28 The new Alignment starting now: Left Front Camber -2.2 / Caster 6.3 / Toe - .11 RIGHT Camber -2.1 / Caster 6.2 / Toe - 0.08 Front Total Toe .2 / Steer Ahead 0.01 Left Rear Camber -2.5 / Toe .06 Right Rear Camber -2.6 / Toe -.02 Rear Total Toe .08 / Thrust Angle 0.02 Going to stay with the current tire pressures. couple of pics IMG-5031a.jpg IMG-5033a.jpg I am just trying to understand what happen. learning all the time.. Thanks and Cheers ahead of time __________________ Lots of Changes the Z needs to be driven and driven hard for the car lives for it

09-17-2022, 08:20 PM	#2 (permalink)
fryzia23 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: new jersey Posts: 452 Drives: 2011 MB 370Z NISMO Rep Power: 1245	With track alignment, driving straight on the highway can wear the inside of tires really quick. My tires would look the same when I drove to the track and back. Probably the addition of negative front toe made it that much worse for you. You just don’t get the full life out of a tire without 2nd of wheels. One thing that can prolong the life, would be to rotate/flip the tires and stick to factory alignment specs for front toe. I finally got the trailer this year. danegrey and Rusty like this.

09-17-2022, 08:20 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 35,185 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684437	Is that the inside or outside of the tire? Front or rear? 2011 Nismo#91 likes this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

09-17-2022, 08:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
thekinn Base Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 206 Drives: 06 350Z LS MT Rep Power: 6862	Hmm. 10 1/2 hours of track time, so that's about 31 20min sessions or like 6-7 track 'days' which doesn't seem like enough to wear them down to cords. How many street miles did you put on them? Have you run these Falken tires before? Assuming square setup, Did you rotate front to rear at all? ..and same questions that Rusty asked.. Just going by what I know which are my Dunlop Star Specs.. I currently have 3k miles total, 6 track days or ~24 sessions and I just rotated them left to right (dismount, flip, remount) and I did rotate front to rear in there too. I've got a good amount of life still in them. Without the details you provided, my first guess would be too much camber on that wheel. But your specs certainly don't say that. __________________ 06 Enthusiast MT - v2

09-20-2022, 08:22 AM	#8 (permalink)
2011 Nismo#91 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 2,400 Drives: slowly Rep Power: 40569	6K miles + 10hrs track time on a DOT tire. Not too unexpected. Though it looks like a lot of wear while there is still some tread left on the rest of the tire. I'd also double check the alignment just to be sure and maybe put in a little toe. danegrey and Rusty like this. __________________ GTR TT 493Whp/431lbft, Ecutek, Southbend 6puck,Quaife, RPM RollBar 4Point, R888R, JRZ RSPro F(10R/10C) R(10R/6C) 1000f500r inlbs+150inlbs Tender, SPL everywhere.Full Specs

09-20-2022, 05:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
Evildky Base Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 89 Drives: 13 Nismo STU/T3 Rep Power: 10187	275 on a 10.5 wheel isn't helping, narrower wheel or wider tire will put less wear on the shoulders. And more camber thekinn, 2011 Nismo#91 and danegrey like this.

09-20-2022, 09:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 35,185 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684437	......and a wider tire to go with those rims, or narrower rims for that size of tire. 275 tire is good with a 9.5" rim. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

09-21-2022, 10:39 AM	#14 (permalink)
2011 Nismo#91 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 2,400 Drives: slowly Rep Power: 40569	Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Alignment __________________ GTR TT 493Whp/431lbft, Ecutek, Southbend 6puck,Quaife, RPM RollBar 4Point, R888R, JRZ RSPro F(10R/10C) R(10R/6C) 1000f500r inlbs+150inlbs Tender, SPL everywhere.Full Specs

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