2021 Formula 1 Thread

[Ventruck]

Dat teammate work

[DLSTR]

Fun race. Mixed condition yield lots of action vs dry. Amazed Merc was still superior in the wet vs RedBull. I sense a weakness now in the RedBull the last 2-3 races. Have they stopped updates now and focus on next year? Mercedes have not brought anything since Silverstone race.

US GP should be another even match. Mexico should be solid RedBull. More fun awaits. Weather could be a factor in US GP. Not summer now!

[DLSTR]

No matter what happend with LH on the radio or tires - this is the news out of the last 2 weeks. Mercedes seem to have the POWER back.

Red Bull surprised at "significant" Mercedes F1 power boost
By: Jonathan Noble
Oct 11, 2021, 4:47 AM
Red Bull says a "surprising" engine power step from Mercedes has left it struggling for answers about how best to stop its Formula 1 title rival pulling clear.

In the wake of Max Verstappen having no answer for the pace of Valtteri Bottas in the Turkish Grand Prix, Red Bull team boss Christian Horner thinks that the competitive picture between the two F1 title rivals has shifted in recent weeks.

Whereas Red Bull appeared to hold a pace advantage heading in to the summer break, he believes that the arrival of Mercedes' latest specification of engines at Spa has boosted the German car manufacturers' straightline speed.

And, while previously Red Bull could counter any top speed advantage from Mercedes by running a lower downforce configuration, now Horner says the gap between the two teams is too big to be able to do that.

Proof of that came in the way that Lewis Hamilton was able to draft past Sergio Perez on the back straight in Turkey at one point in the race, despite running a higher downforce rear wing.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/re...boost/6684975/

[JARblue]

Did I hear they were seeing a 15-20 kph gap at the end of the straights? That's more than RB can make up with DRS active. Uh-oh lol

[DLSTR]

Originally Posted by JARblue

Did I hear they were seeing a 15-20 kph gap at the end of the straights? That's more than RB can make up with DRS active. Uh-oh lol

That is why Horner is so worried. NO DRS and they are much faster. Honda needs to do some work. My guess, without announcing it, RedBull are now working more on the new car for 22.

[abm89]

I'm not gonna lie, i slept through most of the race and I'm kinda glad I did. Looked like a snooze fest.

[DLSTR]

BBC reports on the power issue -- https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58870237

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner has expressed his "surprise" at gains he says Mercedes have made with their engine performance.

Under Formula 1's rules, the title rivals are not allowed to improve the power of their engines in-season.

Horner said Mercedes' straight-line speed "has taken a significant step recently".

"It's surprising they appear to have made the step they have with the power-unit," he added.

Mercedes reject Red Bull's claims, saying nothing has changed in their engine apart from fitting a new one to Hamilton's car for last weekend's Turkish Grand Prix.



Both Hamilton and title rival Max Verstappen of Red Bull have taken new engines - at the cost of grid penalties - over the last two races, Verstappen at the previous race in Russia, Hamilton in Turkey.

Verstappen leads Hamilton by six points with six races to go after the Dutchman finished second in Sunday's Turkish Grand Prix and Hamilton in fifth.


Internal combustion engines always degrade over time, so Hamilton's new engine will have provided a small performance advantage over the one he was using previously.

Red Bull's claims echo similar ones Hamilton himself made about his rival's Honda engine earlier in the season.

Red Bull made an apparent step forward in performance around the time of the French Grand Prix in early summer, and Hamilton publicly questioned how they had been able to do that.

Red Bull's explanation at the time was that aerodynamic upgrades to their car had allowed them to run smaller rear wings, reducing drag and boosting straight-line speed, without harming cornering performance.

Horner said: "We could match them with smaller [rear] wings previously; now we can't get near. And we saw that particularly at this circuit, where Lewis had a straight-line advantage with a bigger rear wing on the car."

Horner added that reliability problems with the Mercedes engine could also be affecting impressions of performance.

"You can see across all their teams Mercedes obviously have some reliability issues they are managing, which is unusual for Mercedes," Horner said. "But their performance is still incredibly impressive.

"Whether one comes at the expense of the other, I don't know, but if you look at some of the speed deltas on the back straight at some points it was 15-20km/h, which is more than if there had been DRS (overtaking aid in use)."

Mercedes say they are puzzled by Horner's suggestions, saying they are not borne out in the data.

Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff admitted the company were managing reliability against performance with their engines.

"When you start to push the boundaries with power-unit performance, at a certain stage you will experience some obstacles," he said.

"Our power-units have been the most reliable since the introduction of the hybrid engines in 2014 and and because the boundaries are being pushed we have seen examples of, let's say, unusual noises within the combustion engine that aren't completely understood at that stage yet.

"They caused some troubles in the past; we had some engines that basically failed and now it's about containing the problem because changing parts is not something you would tackle."

Mercedes appear to have made a step forward in overall performance compared to Red Bull since F1 reconvened following its summer break.

Over the first half of the season, Red Bull had an average advantage in qualifying of 0.026%.

In the three dry qualifying sessions in the second half of the season so far, Mercedes have had an advantage of 0.286%.

However, the three tracks in question - Monza, Sochi and Istanbul Park - are regarded as favouring Mercedes, whereas two of the remaining six races - Mexico and Brazil - are expected to significantly advantage Red Bull.

[DLSTR]

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/70...ext-two-years/

Ewan Gale
Tuesday 12 October 2021 11:50

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner has labelled the extended partnership with Honda past the end of the year as "great news" for the team and revealed power unit parts will be made in Japan through 2023.

Despite Honda's withdrawal from F1 at the end of the season, the two parties agreed to a prolonged partnership covering all motorsport activities and the junior programmes for both Red Bull and Honda.


Red Bull takes over Honda's PU IP for 2022 onwards but had already said the Japanese manufacturer would supply engines from Sakura for the first year of the Red Bull Powertrains initiative.

Horner has suggested, however, the manufacturing of parts will remain in Japan until at least 2024.

[ZCanadian]

I guess Red Bull Powertrains won't be ready for a while yet.
That's one heck of a commitment to Formula racing from Red Bull.
Wonder if they will try to offer engines to other teams, or if their contract with Honda locks them into only their two teams?
Does this extend to F2 powerplants as well? I haven't been paying attention.

And will this affect the rumoured addition of VAG in 2026, I wonder? Were they considering running a team (and if so, buying one of the existing 10, or starting #11), or just supplying engines? Seems that the market for engines just got 20% smaller. RBR isn't going to make this investment for only 4 years. Ferrari and Mercedes aren't going anywhere, and Renault/Alpine won't likely buy an outsourced engine unless the parent company merges in future.

[DLSTR]

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

I guess Red Bull Powertrains won't be ready for a while yet.
That's one heck of a commitment to Formula racing from Red Bull.
Wonder if they will try to offer engines to other teams, or if their contract with Honda locks them into only their two teams?
Does this extend to F2 powerplants as well? I haven't been paying attention.

And will this affect the rumoured addition of VAG in 2026, I wonder? Were they considering running a team (and if so, buying one of the existing 10, or starting #11), or just supplying engines? Seems that the market for engines just got 20% smaller. RBR isn't going to make this investment for only 4 years. Ferrari and Mercedes aren't going anywhere, and Renault/Alpine won't likely buy an outsourced engine unless the parent company merges in future.

RedBull appear to be courting VAG in some fashion but with this 3 year Honda alliance not sure the intent. So Honda and all this going away stuff is a lie. They are not leaving. What a joke.

RedBull appear to be 'hedging' their intent to be a builder. Extend unofficially Honda and hope some group from VAG arrives?? Games of F1 lol

[Hotrodz]

Originally Posted by DLSTR

RedBull appear to be courting VAG in some fashion but with this 3 year Honda alliance not sure the intent. So Honda and all this going away stuff is a lie. They are not leaving. What a joke.

RedBull appear to be 'hedging' their intent to be a builder. Extend unofficially Honda and hope some group from VAG arrives?? Games of F1 lol

Red Bull has talking about building their own engine since before they left Renault. Same song, second verse same as the first!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[ZCanadian]

Originally Posted by Hotrodz

Red Bull has talking about building their own engine since before they left Renault. Same song, second verse same as the first!

Except this time they have started building and staffing it, and the latest comment was:

https://racingnews365.com/horner-pro...trains-project

Horner provides update on Red Bull Powertrains project
(Sept 19, 2021)

Team Principal Christian Horner has revealed the construction of the new Red Bull Powertrains engine development facility at its Milton Keynes factory is "on target".

Red Bull will take on the running of Honda's power units next year as an engine freeze is introduced to Formula 1.

However, Honda will continue to supply Red Bull's Formula 1 engines from its base in Sakura in 2022 before a full handover to Red Bull in 2023.

"The Red Bull Powertrains project is gathering pace with every week," said Horner. "The construction is on target and it's great to see the building really taking shape.

"All the roofing is going on and the dyno will start arriving next month. It's really starting to come together and the effort going into it is impressive.

"We're attracting some great talent and we also have a strong youth policy to bring in some graduates and students into the programme."

Since the formation of Red Bull Powertrains, Red Bull have signed multiple Mercedes engineers for their growing operation.

Horner says the new project will also give an opportunity to younger engineers, with Helmut Marko announcing there will be 300-500 people who are part of Red Bull Powertrains.

"We want to give youth a chance and are looking for candidates who think differently and come from all spectrums and backgrounds," added Horner.

"We'll have a number of scholarships and apprenticeships. It really is a great opportunity and seeing the appeal of this project, with the calibre of individuals we're attracting, is so exciting."

Yes, it is coming out of Horner's mouth, and I washed my hands after cutting and pasting that BS. But I think that there is more to it this time. And with the cost cap screws tightening, and development costs of the engine already behind them, this might make more sense than it has in past years. Certainly, the Renault engine was a huge letdown in 2019. I don't think that they had both cars finish more than three races in a row that season. With two teams to shop for, neither MB nor Ferrari could supply the Red Bull organization without chopping one of their current customer teams. So, what else can they do now but go out on their own and plead with Honda to help them out until they are up to speed.

[Hotrodz]

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

Except this time they have started building and staffing it, and the latest comment was:

https://racingnews365.com/horner-pro...trains-project

Horner provides update on Red Bull Powertrains project
(Sept 19, 2021)

Team Principal Christian Horner has revealed the construction of the new Red Bull Powertrains engine development facility at its Milton Keynes factory is "on target".

Red Bull will take on the running of Honda's power units next year as an engine freeze is introduced to Formula 1.

However, Honda will continue to supply Red Bull's Formula 1 engines from its base in Sakura in 2022 before a full handover to Red Bull in 2023.

"The Red Bull Powertrains project is gathering pace with every week," said Horner. "The construction is on target and it's great to see the building really taking shape.

"All the roofing is going on and the dyno will start arriving next month. It's really starting to come together and the effort going into it is impressive.

"We're attracting some great talent and we also have a strong youth policy to bring in some graduates and students into the programme."

Since the formation of Red Bull Powertrains, Red Bull have signed multiple Mercedes engineers for their growing operation.

Horner says the new project will also give an opportunity to younger engineers, with Helmut Marko announcing there will be 300-500 people who are part of Red Bull Powertrains.

"We want to give youth a chance and are looking for candidates who think differently and come from all spectrums and backgrounds," added Horner.

"We'll have a number of scholarships and apprenticeships. It really is a great opportunity and seeing the appeal of this project, with the calibre of individuals we're attracting, is so exciting."

Yes, it is coming out of Horner's mouth, and I washed my hands after cutting and pasting that BS. But I think that there is more to it this time. And with the cost cap screws tightening, and development costs of the engine already behind them, this might make more sense than it has in past years. Certainly, the Renault engine was a huge letdown in 2019. I don't think that they had both cars finish more than three races in a row that season. With two teams to shop for, neither MB nor Ferrari could supply the Red Bull organization without chopping one of their current customer teams. So, what else can they do now but go out on their own and plead with Honda to help them out until they are up to speed.

LMAO, I agree. I had to roll my eyes when the said they have hire engineers from MB. That may be true but I sure they have not worked for MB for more than three years or so because of disclosed clauses on proprietary information. They are going to need a lot of help from Honda for more than two or three years to complete with the other three engine manufacturers. MB is now supplying motors to three other teams and they all are getting more competitive!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[DLSTR]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/58918353

Chinese Grand Prix: Shanghai race expected to be dropped from 2022 F1 calendar

The Chinese Grand Prix is expected to be dropped from the 2022 Formula 1 calendar when next year's schedule is published on Friday.

The Shanghai race has not been held since the coronavirus pandemic began and restrictions surrounding Covid in China mean holding it is impossible.

It will be replaced by the Emilia Romagna GP at Imola on 24 April.

F1 is set to publish a record 23-race calendar with all the other established events absent this season reinstated.

[ZCanadian]

Guess it's already time for the 2022 thread.

No expectation - here is the calendar as it stands, with 4 contracts remaining to be signed... and no China.