Subaru powered Toyota FT-86 Concept

Originally Posted by Lug

OK, I won't tell you I recently got a quote for a new 2012 Mustang GT non-premium with the brembo package for under $27,000. I won't mention it. WILD HORSES couldn't drag that info out of me!

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

.... I won't go to the dark side -- a Mustang is too big ... I won't go to the dark side -- a Mustang is too big ... I won't go .........

Seriously, I don't want anything that is more or less in the same class as my Z. I'm keeping my Z so I'm not looking for a replacement for my performance vehicle.

Originally Posted by NeoSHNIK

So you want 4 seater coupe that's smaller than the Z and more practical? =)
Honestly, you SHOULD look at the Mustang. They are great cars, and if you are so concerned with handling, I'm sure you can upgrade the suspension to make it more like the Z. Those Roush Mustangs handle pretty darn well...

Originally Posted by NeoSHNIK

So you want 4 seater coupe that's smaller than the Z and more practical? =)
Honestly, you SHOULD look at the Mustang. They are great cars, and if you are so concerned with handling, I'm sure you can upgrade the suspension to make it more like the Z. Those Roush Mustangs handle pretty darn well...

Originally Posted by vividracing

Totally forgot to start a thread on this forum... But we've got an FR-S now

VividRacing.com Performance Racing Parts Project Scion FR-S

Originally Posted by Nikkolai

lol I agree. Never knew a person who defended a car so much and not even owning it and going off what magazines say. Driver's car... excuses that underpowered tiny cars say to defend themselves. I'm just going to go ahead and trade in my Mustang for an MX-5 asap since it's more of a "driver's" car. In fact, why even choose a GT-R when you can have a BRZ/FRS since it's a better "driver's" car?

Originally Posted by cossie1600

You need to layoff the kool-aid. For one, the RX-8 is a better comparison to the car than the MX-5. Any smallish cars are most likely going to be fun to drive regardless of what engine it has. It's the same reason why all the old Triumphs and MG were so popular even though they were piece of $hit.

Originally Posted by DJ-of-E

@vo2max99

I would agree with you if you compare stock to stock. Out of production, the 370z has a lot of "cost cutting" in which a lot of us feel Nissan never took the Z to the track during the summer to fully realized the huge drawbacks on the car.

The reason they ranked it low is because of the above issues. If you read the article carefully, they said they would rank it close second to the Evo if the following issues did not occur to them:

1) Rising oil cooler temps (hence why aftermarket oil coolers are highly recommended for the 370z)
2) Brake fade (Stock akebonos do not cool properly, 350z Brembos are a lot better).

However, on the car's "performance" itself and feel, they love it. It's kinda like having an RX-7, you think it's magnificent and if the engine pops, you think it's a piece of crap.

Careful when pulling articles when all you read is the title and summary results.

People's opinions can be different. If I own both cars and which I would sell first, it would be the FRS.

Originally Posted by vo2max99

I've read the reviews and driven the car myself and the reason the Z isn't as good a driver's car vs. the EVO X and MX-5 go far beyond the oil heating and brake problems.

The general consensus is that the Z isn't a very good driver's car. It consistently places near the rear in best handling / best driver's car comparisons. Not to say the Z is a terrible car it isn't and I would take one over a Genesis Coupe and ANY FWD car including my 08' MS3.

The Z simply does not offer the same steering feedback / feel, chassis control and general overall experience as either the EVO or MX-5. It's a decent car for posting quick lab times but there are much better options for driver's cars.

How you could say you would ditch a BRZ before you ditched a Z without having never driven one is kinda odd. Personally I would ditch the one that was the least fun to drive (likely the Z if the BRZ is any where near as fun as the MX-5).

Again, it just depends on what you want. I value the experience behind the wheel over the test track #'s. Other's are more about drag / street racing and chose #'s above all else.


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Originally Posted by vo2max99

I've read the reviews and driven the car myself and the reason the Z isn't as good a driver's car vs. the EVO X and MX-5 go far beyond the oil heating and brake problems.

The general consensus is that the Z isn't a very good driver's car. It consistently places near the rear in best handling / best driver's car comparisons. Not to say the Z is a terrible car it isn't and I would take one over a Genesis Coupe and ANY FWD car including my 08' MS3.

The Z simply does not offer the same steering feedback / feel, chassis control and general overall experience as either the EVO or MX-5. It's a decent car for posting quick lab times but there are much better options for driver's cars.

How you could say you would ditch a BRZ before you ditched a Z without having never driven one is kinda odd. Personally I would ditch the one that was the least fun to drive (likely the Z if the BRZ is any where near as fun as the MX-5).

Again, it just depends on what you want. I value the experience behind the wheel over the test track #'s. Other's are more about drag / street racing and chose #'s above all else.


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Originally Posted by FL 4Motion

I don't know if it's your intention or not, but you are coming off in this thread as so defenisve of the frs/brz that it's almost angry.

Bottom line is some folks will want more power out of a car and some will be happy with less.

I think the brz/frs is nice, but it would be perfect with 250hp imo. I feel it's a bit underpowered.

Before you slam me for making that assumption w/o having driven one. The wife and i have previously owned 2 miatas, a 99 and on 03 shinsen ed. Referring to the 03 shinsen, I will say it had the BEST clutch/shifter feel etc of ANY car I've ever driven, the balance etc was spot on and it was a hoot to drive around even if I didn't fit in it for sh!t.

Now, having said that, after a while, you quickly realize that the miata could use another 60-100 horses. That was my takeaway from it. great car, but underpowered. Trying to merge in with traffic was an exercise in frustration.

The truth is, you can't drive even a miata as aggressively as you'd like to on the street b/c squealing tires around the corners in your neighborhood tends to be frowned upon. The only safe place to explore the limits of your car regardless of what it is is the track. And the miata is underpowered for anything more than autox and I suspect the BRZ/FRS will be too. That's not to say they won't be fun but for folks who have owned many different sports cars, I think it will be disapointing.

The 370Z is def not perfect, lord knows folks on here have seen me b1tch about it's many shortcomings, but the aftermarket has good solutions for almost all of them. Hell, a simple tire size adjustment (wider fronts) will help make the Z less prone to understeer and that is a very simple fix/improvement.

For a 3300lb car like the Z, 300-350 hp is a good starting place powerwise imo.

For a 2700-2800lb car like the brz, 250ish hp is a good spot powerwise imo.

To each his own, I think it's a nice car, but def not for me, too much $$ for too little power, regardless of the handling characteristics. Been there, done that, got the T shirt.

Originally Posted by vo2max99

No, I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous to assume the BRZ / FR-S are somehow not worth it due to their straight line acceleration.

Again, if the BRZ / FR-S are indeed in the same ball park with the MX-5 as 99^ of the reviews have suggested it makes no sense to assume the cars won't be worth the price or be under-powered.

Also to assume more power would somehow make the BRZ / FR-S better is a fallacy unless your main thing is #'s. As is with 200hp the BRZ / FR-S will likely finish far above any car 40K and under and in the same ball park vs. the EVO X / MX-5 in terms of being fun to drive / handling dynamics.

So of this happens to be the case (likely IMO) how does it make any sense to suggest the car is somehow too under-powered / not worth it, etc? So a car costing ~25-28K is rated among the best drivers cars yet somehow it's not worth it? I don't follow the logic.

Why would the car need more than 200hp if by most accounts it doesn't and places among the very best in terms of being a fun to drive driver's car? Is it the #'s your worried about?

But again, I haven't driven the BRZ / FR-S but judging on 99% of the reviews thus far there's not much reason to believe the BRZ / FR-S won't be well worth the price.

If you're happy with your Z that's great nobody is forcing anybody to trade in. There's no need to take offense. I know people feel they need to defend their purchase but it's not the end of the World. There's always going to be better cars coming out.


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Originally Posted by vo2max99

So much misinformation I don't even know where to begin..

Let's start with the BRZ / FR-S

* It's curb weight is ~ 2750lbs NOT 3000lbs.

* It puts down 173WHP NOT under 150WHP

* 0-60 in 6.2 and 14.8 quarter is plenty quick enough for a car like the BRZ / FR-S. More power wouldn't do much for the fun factor just screw with the balance and limit engagement.

* EVO is basically the ONLY one's saying the BRZ is under powered. Considering they could only muster a 7.6 0-60 and tested the AUTO version may have something to do with it but not that much.

* I'll take the word over the vast majority over one set of reviews basically claiming the complete opposite. Their motives for basically saying the BRZ is a POS? Can't say for sure but no way in hell can so many be so wrong about the car.


For the lost one saying the Z is somehow vastly superior to cars like the MX-5 / BRZ:

The MX-5 is far FAR the superior driver's car. So if 99.9% of the reviews who've tested the BRZ / FR-S are correct the BRZ / FR-S will also blow the Z out of the water where it actually matters. Don't believe it? Wait until Car and Driver / Road & Track / Motor Trend, etc test them.

Not long ago Car and Driver tested / compared (best 40K and under) the Mustang GT, 370Z, MX-5, EVO X, GTI, Cooper JCW.

Results? The EVO X and MX-5 are in another league above the rest. Far better handling / driver's cars than the rest.

The 370Z finished behind the Mustang GT ahead of only the FWD GTI and Mini Cooper JCW barely.

They rated the 370Z the least fun to drive of all the cars. The EVO X and MX-5 finished WAY far ahead in the fun to drive category as well. The Z did post the 2nd quickest lab though! Not that really matters.

The #'a don't mean **** unless your racing your daily drivers for a living.

Again, considering 99.9% say the BRZ / FR-S is similar to the MX-5 it will in fact be far more fun / rewarding to drive than your precious Z.

I'm not here to stoke egos just stating reality. Sorry but your Z isn't all you think it is. If your happy with it that's great but don't fool yourself there are much better cars.

A car doesn't have to have all kinds of power to be a great driver's car when it has a well balanced chassis and accessible limits. Cars with really high limits need the extra power a hence can only really be exploited on a race track.

Again see Mazda MX-5 it's pure proof of this. The fact that it doesn't have a whole lot of power makes it fun as well as you can drive closer to 99% more of the time. Most cars today have far too much power and way higher limits than necessary for the street.

I don't have a problem acknowledging the weaknesses of the car I'm currently driving being an 08' MS3. I have no issue acknowledging that while it's the fastest Mazda currently offers it's by no means the best sports car Mazda offers.

The MX-5 is by far more fun / rewarding to drive and there's plenty of other cars that I have no problem admitting are much better than my MS3. Had I not been in a serious relationship at the time with a kid I would have gotten more of a pure sports car but the MS3 is still a decent car.

The novelty of going fast in a straight line runs off fast (I've driven plenty of 11-12 sec cars) There's so much more to a good sports car than how fast it goes.





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