Subaru powered Toyota FT-86 Concept

kenchan

vo2- you really like the BRZ/FRS, huh?

vo2max99

I don't know but I'm not going to diss it just because it doesn't run a certain 0-60 time, etc.


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Shamu

EVO drivers are much more like minded to enthusiast drivers. They took it on 1000 km road trip. Quite opposite from your assumption. They see BRZ as being awesome track toy where you thrash it to death but the took brz on extended trip on country roads with competing cars. Spent a lot of non track time. They wanted to love the car but couldn't. It's way too buttoned down with not enough power.

They indicated they often were lacking torque and engine is not rewarding but very thrashy. Indicated its very well executed but very boring to drive on the street.

Makes sense to me 2700 lbs of car plus driver are a lot for a little 2.o to haul around. They indicated car is lifeless on street until you get it over 5000 rpm.

Also indicated its toy like. They gave it 3.5 stars. 370z got better rating.

I'll stay with my grown up Z thank you.

They also tested old Wrx against it and said wrx was more exciting to drive. That's pretty damning!

Also ran it on the track were a front wheel drive Renault was putting 5 seconds a lap on it! Ouch!

Here you go

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/trackday...est_video.html

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetev...road_trip.html

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Grant

vo2max99

The numbers a particular car produces often way over rates it's overall value is terms of being a great sports car. There are multiple examples which prove precisely this.

If you want a good idea of how good / bad a particular car is you obviously need to drive it. The numbers will give you an idea of how fast / slow the car is but that's about it.

If the 0-60, 1/4m, skid pad, slalom #'s, etc. was all there was to the value of a sports car there would be no need for reviews, test drives or anything. You'd just buy the car that produced the best #'s for the money and be done with it.

Far more important reviews are the "Best handling / Best Driver's car" reviews. These type of test / reviews reveal how the car actually drives, feels from behind the wheel, connects with the driver, etc. The subjective qualities that actually matter are revealed.

With that said I'll guarantee the BRZ / FR-S will finish far ahead ALL of the merely more powerful / faster cars in its segment (EVO X possibly being one exception as far as handling) and most above. In other words the cars will excel in the areas that actually matter not so much the #'s.



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vo2max99

Oh and that's what 1 out of how many reviews that say the opposite? I got a feeling they are full of ****. EVO is known for being shitty at car reviews so what they say doesn't mean anything as far as I'm concerned.

I'll take the word of the VAST Majority until I get a chance to drive one myself.

Your "grown up" Z? Well your "grown up" Z gets destroyed by a little MX-5 where it matters. The BRZ / FR-S according to 99.9% who've tested say it doesn't need more power and should be among the best driver's cars available.

Just wait until Car and Driver / Road & Track compare / test the BRZ / FR- S against your "grown up" Z in test that actually matter. I can almost guarantee the BRZ / FR-S will rate far ahead of your "grown up" Z.

I just noticed that EVO could only muster a 7.6 0-60time so they either can't drive worth a time or they were handed a busted BRZ to test. Others have posted times ranging in the 6.2-6.4 range.

Regardless the car isn't about #'s and should be a phenomenal driver's car. EVO is CLEARLY full of **** and this wouldn't be the first time they published a BS review. They're consisting coming to conclusions completely contrary to reality. Their mentally is like the typical 20 year old kid judging cars almost solely on "how fast" it goes. UK Top Gear has more credibility than them and that isn't saying much at all.

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Shamu

Mazda seemed to do fine convincing people that you don't need power to have fun? I have owned Mazda MX5 and found that car more fun to drive than heavier more powerfully Porsche boxsters I owned. Toyota and subi built something very close to 2.5 liter Porsche Boxster. Great car but boring as heck to drive on street

My 450 HP sub 3000 lb Z is a true hoot to drive compared to well buttoned down boxsters.

I also owned 3 porsche 914s and 914/6. Way less power than anything above including BRZ but fun to drive.

I don't think BRZ developers got the fun to drive piece completely. I'm waiting for next generation. They will still send a ton based on hype but serious sports car drivers are likely be on the fence.

To be honest I had a Toyota Echo with full coil overs and big swaybars that was one of most fun cars I have ever driven it would set into turn with oversteer and had to use its 95 Ho to haul it out of a spin.

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Grant

vo2max99

What are you basing "boring as heck on the street" on in regards to the BRZ / FR-S? I've yet to read one review (other than EVO for some odd reason/ they could only muster a 7.6 0-60 so who knows) that says the BRZ somehow needs more power to be fun on the street.

Serious sports car driver's will be on the fence? No, people who understand cars know that cars don't need all kinds of horse power to be a great driver's car.

The MX-5 consistently rates far above EVERY sports car in its segment (exception being EVO X in which case it's close) when it comes to handling and being a superior driver's car.

So seeing as the BRZ / FR-S are no slower than the MX-5 there's no reason to believe "serious sports car driver's" will or should be on the fence. More power, wider stickier tires would help it produce a quicker lab time but that's about it.

As is at its current power to ratio it should strike just about the right balance to be the most fun on the street. More power could be added and you could enjoy the sudden rush of acceleration for short 3-4 second burst at a time before losing your license and so on.

I've found that cars you can push closer to 99% more of the time is a lot more fun / rewarding vs. driving a car which is much faster for short burst. I prefer the actual experience over the bragging rights / #'s.

As far as Mazda convincing people well that use to be the case. Sell of the MX-5 Miata are way down from where they use to be because ppl have been brainwashed into "more in better".

It's the same reason for why Honda stopped production of the Honda S2000 and the same reason Subaru / Toyota unfortunately won't be making too many more cars like the BRZ / FR-S unless people are educated.

They'll just go back to producing high horse power cars vastly inferior to drive than cars like the Mazda MX-5 / Honda S2000, etc because folks keep crying for more horse power. So people who understand cars have to suffer from mass ignorance.

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vo2max99

Here's a good review:

U.S. Roads / Pro driver


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPoZ1...e_gdata_player


Okay so I just read that review from EVO.

1.) They tested an AUTO version against the others equipped with MANUALS.

2.) What they say about the car is completely contrary to what 99% have said about it. Majority says the BRZ is a phenomenal driver's car with adequate power. EVO basically says its a POS.

3.) No F'N way is the car nearly as terrible as they've made it out to be automatic transmission or not.

4.) They say there's no power below 5000 RPMS and you have to rev the **** out of it to move yet the vast majority say the BRZ has plenty of grunt from as low as ~ 2500rpm and DYNO confirms why as 90% torque available @2500RPM on up to 7000RPM.

4.) It sounds as if they were hired to diss the car not review it. The bottom line is that they're either: Way off the mark in their review. The automatic transmission makes the BRZ a turd. The BRZ they tested had issues. Otherwise it doesn't make sense because no way can so many credible automobile entities be so wrong. It's as if 99 say YES and EVO says NO. Something isn't adding up..


On another note I noticed the MX-5 they tested had just 158hp vs. 167hp (really 170 for 09's with a 7200rpm redline but not a big deal) for the U.S. model. I wonder why that is?

You wouldn't think 10hp would big a deal but according to EVO their MX-5 takes 7.5 seconds to hit 60mph vs. the 167hp U.S. MX-5's 6.3 0-60. That's over a full second for 10hp... It may have been 62mph making it roughly 7.3-7.4 seconds but that's still a full second back from the U.S. MX-5. But then again it may be their driving as they could only manage a 7.6 second 0-60 with the BRZ when it's posted 6.2 in the U.S.


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Shamu

EVO guys hired to diss a car? Lol! You clearly don't know those guys. Nope they just know cars well and Take time to really drive cars too. Lots of long term tests. Take cars to same circuit. They have track days on regular basis too. They are great at assessing cars strengths and weaknesses. They were spot on.

Have you seen Dynos? Yeah it make 125 ft lbs of torque and 75 HP at 3000 RPM hauling 3000 lbs of car and people. Sorry that's a fail in my book. No f'n way does this car have grunt with hefty near 3000 lb weight with customers seated in drivers seat. Vast majority of testers in US have based input based on track tests where they can easily grab power and focus on extracting power with redline shifts. That's not practical on the street. Yeah it's an underpowered But fun track car. However a 2700 lb car that will be closer to 3000 lbs with passengers will suffer with a sub 150 whp motor. It's physics. I don't even need to drive it to know its underpowered.

I can tell you my biggest complaint with 2800 lb 217 Hp Porsche Boxster was that it always needed to be down shifted if I was under 4000 rpm to grab acceptable power. Magazines all raved about Boxster too and it was and still is a great car but lack of power in early boxsters was real bummer. There is a reason why you can buy used 2.5 and 2.7 boxsters for under $10k. The Boxster S and Cayman S actually are fun to drive as they make enough power to exploit great chassis.

Subaru made excellent chassis for BRZ just as Porsche did for old boxsters. However just watch what happens to resale values of base BRZ if Subi introduces an STI version with forced induction. I suspect they won't do that soon as they know they would tank resale values and cars sold on leases would take higher depreciation hit. They likely will make slow incrental changes. Too bad really as the car has great potential.

I disagree with you. If BRZ had come in around say 2450 lbs with 2.0 it would have been tons of fun but when you put two people in the car your going to be over 3000 lbs. the power and torque to weight ratio is terrible. It's just too heavy for that small NA 2.0 motor.

Yes it's relatively fun car compared to a Civic or a Mazda 3. It's spicy sport looks will attract lots of women buyers too. It's practical too. But it misses mark as serious sports car in my book. Please buy one I'd lobe to hear what you think once you have one for a year or two. You seemed to convince yourself this car is awesome with no flaws. Suspect brz forums are going to be fixated on how to get more power and how to shed weight.

FYI in Europe mx5 comes with smaller 1.8 liter motor

Edit: heres an idea how about Subaru offering a Motorsports edition where they delete rear seats and maybe do a few more things to take weight off this porky 4 cylinder "sports car"

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Grant

NeoSHNIK

Pretty sure most of 370z owners have researched the sports car market before choosing the Z. I'm sure we all understand that the cute Miata has good cornering capabilities but that's about it. So we chose the Z for a reason.
Most cars have something special. If you care about the price, you should go with Versa and you can say that "where it matters" Versa destroys all competition. If all that matters is interior quality you will say Aston Martin Raptide destroys all competition "where it matters". If you care about a straight line acceleration at a good price you will say that the mustang destroys all "where it matters"... and everyone is right from their own perspective.
So it seems like cornering is the only one thing that matters to you. You don't care how silly your car looks. You don't care about acceleration and power? You don't care about interior quality. You don't care how all the stats translate to track times or quarter mile times. In that case, yes, the Miata is best for you.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that from the perspective of Z owners (and that's your audience right now), Miata doesn't "destroy competition where it matters" for most Z owners... especially not me. Try this trick on Miata forums and I'm sure you can get some extra respect

Zaggeron

I look at this from a different perspective. I have my Z. It's not going anyway.

I have my daily driver Mazda 3, but the love is wearing off. The Z is a no-go as a daily driver -- for various reasons including gridlock every morning.

What cars are out there that will be fun as a DD, sporty, more or less cheap to run and maintain, and, oh ... by the way ... I'm sick of FWD and 4 doors.

My choices are basically the FRS, MX-5, or the BRZ. For my purposes, the BRZ looks like a solid deal -- better interior than the MX-5 and FRS. More practical than the MX-5 (plus I already have a convertible so a used s2000 is out as well). I looked at the BMW 1 series, but those are starting to get up there in price and the 128 doesn't have much better performance than the BRZ for about 8K more ...

Did I leave anything out? What other RWD coupes around 28K or under are there that get better mileage than an SUV (to rule out the RX-8 which I would pick up in a heartbeat if they got better gas mileage and their rear seals didn't blow in the Texas heat).

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2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

Lug

Mazdaspeed 3 is worth a look for a DD. I'm gonna peek in on a 2012 when the 2013's are anounced and see if I can pull one for around 22K.

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keep Chubbs in your pocket - Chubbs

DJ-of-E

I've test driven the FR-S on an auto-X course before. It's a fun and peppy car, but my previous experiences with Boxer engine made me scared of riving over 7000RPM.

I have my Nissan 240sx and Nissan 370z. Engine-wise it feels like my stock 240sx quite a bit with a lot more power at the top end. Handling-wise, I would definitely want this chassis over Silvia S15 on the track. It has a lot of composure on the handling. It's a fun little car that I may consider purchasing, but since I already have a 240sx and money spent on mods on it, I most likely not.

However, this car isn't a bad purchase. If a person haven't bought a Mustang or 370z, I whole would suggest the FRS has a very good sporty option of a car to recommend. It's a great step-up from a daily driver and hopefully promote more car companies to build sportier looking and feeling cars.

As an overall package, I personally would not trade my Z for the FR-S (I did not sit on BRZ, so I cannot compare). Here are my pros and cons vs the 370z.

Pros:
-2 rear seats
-a lot of trunk space
-Actually very easy to drive quickly (Z is harder to drive, but can outgrip FR-S once you learn it).
-Not as corner carver as Miata, but friendly enough to let you power through a corner.
-Easier to see down the engine bay from the driver's windshield perspective
-Better engine sound to 7000RPM than the stock VQ.
-Cabin not as noisy as 370z.
-Feels a lot lighter, yet feels heavier (but planted) compared to my 240SX.

Cons:
-Lacking lacking in power if you're use to turbo or larger engine (both applies to me).
-IMHO, Z33 interior is better than this car's interior...and I do not like the Z33 interior.
-$30k OTD price this year (these cars are priced jacked like hell @ dealers last time I checked yesterday), expected to be around $28k OTD by the end of the year.

While it seems the pros outweight the cons, it's because I felt the FRS is a solid car overall and a lot of the benefits are just personal preferences and comfort rather than performance.

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NeoSHNIK

I use my Z as a daily driver and I love it.

Zaggeron

Different strokes .... My 16 mile drive takes 40 minutes. I'm keeping the Z in any event. I just like having a daily driver too.

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2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited