Subaru powered Toyota FT-86 Concept

vo2max99

Yeah typically but of course some drive trains will be slightly more / less efficient than others.

As long as the WHP accounts for no more than ~ 15% loss of peak output for RWD the chances are the motor is making its advertised horse power.

So for a 200hp RWD car such as the FR-S / BRZ it should put down ~ 170WHP. It put down 173@7000rpm so it's good to go.

A 200hp FWD car should DYNO ~ 176WHP. Civic SI's typical DYNO ~185WHP so they either have extremely efficient drive trains or the real power rating is closer to 210hp. The 2010' GTI DYNO is ~200WHP (this would translate to a 0% drive train loss which is impossible) The GTI's 2.0l Turbo in reality makes up 235hp or somewhere between 220-235hp.

A 200hp AWD car should DYNO ~ 160WHP. AWD is obviously the least efficient at transferring engine power to the wheels. This is why AWD cars are slower "at speed / no launch in the equation" compared to FWD/RWD cars of the same relative power to weight ratios.

Of course AWD cars have the advantage from a standing start but otherwise they are typically going to be slower than most FWD/RWD with the same advertised power to weight ratios from a rolling start / passing.

There's advantages / disadvantages to each drive train configuration but over all RWD is typically the most fun IMO unless you live in a really snowy / harsh climate in which case AWD is better.

Oh and automatic transmissions typically suck up more power (~ 2-5%) than manual transmissions.

And of course "peak power" is not the only thing that matters when analyzing a DYNO. You got to consider the "torque curve" how progressively the engine builds power, consistency and so on.

I'm sure most of you knew this stuff already just pointing out to those who may be confused.

vo2max99

So I watched some YouTube vids of the BRZ and I'm really liking what I see more and more. It's really a gorgeous car in my opinion especially in that blue color. It's only a tad bit bigger than the MX-5 yet still has semi-usable folding rear seats so that's a big plus for me. I wonder if my road bike will fit in the trunk with the seats folded.. I think it will a long as I release the front wheel.

There's a video of a BRZ racing a modified Z around this really technical / autocross type course. The BRZ finished just ~ 1 second behind at ~ 1:11.xx vs. 1:10.xx so you know it's handling is amazing (Using the Porsche Cayman as their bench mark was smart).

I just hope people dismiss it due to its relatively low 200hp so that I wont see every swinging **** and their mother driving them. It wouldn't be a huge deal but it would be nice for it to be somewhat unique.

I'm glad it comes with HID's and quite a few other features that typically are only an "option" for many cars such as Navigation. I just hope the Navigation unit works as good as it looks. All in all the BRZ seems like a great deal considering the reviews / features.


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vo2max99

Easily exploitable limits. This is in a nutshell is what makes a car such as the BRZ so great to drive. It's a car you can drive at 99% for 99% of the time as the saying goes.

This is why this idea that the BRZ needs more power, wider / stickier tires, etc doesn't make much sense unless all you care about is numbers.

What's the point in having all kinds of power and extremely high limits if the only time you can exploit the cars limits is at a race track? Bragging rights? I just don't get the appeal...

Subaru could have easily put wider / stickier tires on the BRZ so that it would look more impressive on paper, pull higher G's, etc but "numbers" weren't their main concern.

Subaru's goal with the BRZ was to produce an affordable fun to drive sports car and by all accounts they've delivered. If you want #'s Subaru has the STi.

Yet in all the comment sections after the reviews of the BRZ / FR-S people continue to bitch and complain about the power. Is as if they have NO CLUE about what makes a sports car worth it.

Their logic goes something like this "OMG 200hp?? Why would I buy this slow POS BRZ when I can buy a 274hp Genesis Coupe for the same price"?

It's really amazing....



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Zaggeron

I don't care about uniqueness. I want both Toyota and Subaru to sell a ton of them. I want 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation BRZs. I'd love to see this start a trend towards inexpensive fun to drive not-very-practical sports coupes. There is a real dearth in the market and if these end up not selling well, it will be a long while before a manufacturer tries it again.

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2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

Isamu

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Project: SuperNova Owner/Operator and Lead designer @BlackGuard Aeroworks

vo2max99

Exactly! This is why this obsession with numbers many folks have isn't conducive in convincing manufactures to build truly great and affordable sports cars such as the BRZ.

I hope manufactures go back to producing more cars like the Honda S2000 / MX-5 / RX-8. Cars that may not be all that fast but are affordable and a blast to drive.

Of course many will dismiss such cars ONLY because their ego's are too fragile unfortunately. They're oh so afraid about that drag racing soccer mom in that 300hp V6 family car. This of course is ridiculous but you may be surprised by how many are truly terrified about such none sense.

For one, there's always going to be someone out there with a faster car. Two, if your concerned about your ego just race cars of similar capability. What's the point in racing against cars that are clearly slower anyways? It doesn't prove anything other than your car happens to be quicker.

http://m.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1112_2013_subaru_brz/index.html

"Wait, wait, wait! The BRZ isn’t about the numbers! A sports car doesn’t need to look good in the stats box, it just needs to be a great drive. And the BRZ is a great drive. If you’re looking for smoking 0-60 numbers and crazy top speeds that you’ll never get to, there are certainly other cars that better fit your tastes. The BRZ needs a convertible top more than it needs a turbo -- because that, not horsepower, is the only thing holding this car back from being the modern-day equivalent of those wonderful 1960s sports cars."



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Shamu

EVO staffers drove BRZ, 370Z, Renault hot hatch, base Cayman and MX5. General comment is the BRZ is underpowered for road car. Lack of torque and odd pancake 4 just don't suit the excellent chassis. So plan on spending additional $10k on turbo. They also said mx5 was more fun to drive a d Toyota and Subaru should have driven mx5 before building BRZ/FT86.

They also said 370z is in completely different league. BRZ was toy like in comparison. Cheap trim etc.

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kenchan

thanks! i will test drive one myself, but at the moment i scratched it off my list of dd's to buy. for me it would be the FRS.

for some reason the car reminds me of a tamiya grasshopper theme.. lol

theDreamer

Looks like Vivid Racing has got one and has started playing with it:
FR-S Inbound - Vivid just reserved an FR-S! - MY350Z.COM Forums

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vo2max99

The VAST majority who've tested the BRZ / FR-S say it's a phenomenal sports car not in need of more power (Car and Driver; Road&Track; Motor Trend; Edmunds, Automobile Mag; etc,etc..)

Judging the car based on test track #'s (apparently this is what EVO does) doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

The Z is in a different league? Sure and if judging solely by #'s most other cars 35K and under are in a "different league" compared to the BRZ / FR-S.

The BRZ / FR-S weren't built to produce fast test track #'s. They were built to be excellent driver's cars and by ALL accounts (other than EVO I suppose because they judge more on #'s) they've delivered.

A turbo kit would do nothing other than make the BRZ / FR-S produce quicker test track #'s. The vast majority who've actually test driven the car say it has just the right balance of power to make it a blast to drive on a daily bases. A turbo kit would be a waste of money / ruin the cars great balance.

The bottom line is that at least 9/10 say the BRZ / FR-S are among the best cars to drive right up there with the Mazda MX-5 Miata. So if this is indeed the case the car is going to be phenomenal.

As they said theirselves if you want #'s they have the STi. If you want a driver's car the BRZ / FR-S deliver.

You can mod the hell out of an STi and have a blast for short 3-4 second burst at a time. Personally I'd rather have a car I can drive closer to 99% for 99% of the time.

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NeoSHNIK

vo2max99, its hard to compare anything without referring to some kind of statistic. Subjective comparisons are great, but they are... subjective. Saying that the car is badass and you can drive it at 99% for 99% of the time is great... but many slower cars can be driven at 99% for 99% of the time (because their acceleration sucks and top speed is low). Does that make it a good sports car? You get used to it and it becomes a dull car...
I'd rather have a car that can be great on the road, but when I get a nice opening or a lonely curvy road - I can have exciting fun with which will end up with my heart rate going up and fun memories/stories.

Zaggeron

I think you mean "subjective". Anyway, the proof of the eating is in the lack of pudding ...

In any event, top speed is rather meaningless for an everyday car. I've never come close to the top speed in my Mazda 3 much less my Z. Acceleration -- from 25 to 50 is a good interval to judge for twisty road fun -- and handling are my main concerns.

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2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

NeoSHNIK

Zaggeron, I did indeed mean "subjective", thank you.

As far as 20-50 acceleration - I agree that its a very good stat for twisty road fun. This is probably my most important stat.
I also tend to have a lot of 0-80mph accelerations from the red light, so that stat is probably most important to me.
Agreed that top speed is mostly good for bragging rights

vo2max99

The BRZ / FR-S produce more than enough power while also having exploitable limits. What's the point in having a car with all kinds of power and extremely high limits when it can only be exploited while going balls to the wall on a race track?

With cars like the BRZ / FR-S you don't have to exceed all the posted limits to have a blast driving it on a daily bases. Because of the relatively modest power and relatively skinny semi-performance tires the BRZ / FR-S can be ran through the gears, induce oversteer, drift, etc without the risk of losing your license, etc.

Again, these cars are all about the experience behind the wheel not 0-60, nurburgring time, etc. Stats are great for selling cars but they don't even begin to scratch the surface when it comes to evaluating how great a sports car is.

This is why cars are thoroughly reviewed / tested first hand and judging by the vast majority of credible entities that have reviewed the BRZ / FR-S they don't need more power are are phenomenal driver's cars.

The Mazda MX-5 Miata is no quicker than the BRZ / FR-S and it is World renown for being one of the best driver's cars on the planet. So there's no reason to think that the BRZ / FR-S wont be as well.

I'll have to test drive before making up my mind in the end. There's always the MX-5 if I'm not entirely convinced. I know for sure that's a phenomenal car because I've driven it so no worries there.

I've driven many far quicker cars and none where nearly as fun to drive other than perhaps an EVO 9. But an EVO is far more expensive to maintain. Oh and the S2000 is awesome but as a daily driver a bit too harsh and I don't want to buy used.


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vo2max99

Too many judge cars like this:

Car A: $ 35k / 300hp

Car B: $35k / 200hp

Conclusion: Car is "A" is superior because you get more horse power per dollar.

Of course this is a ridiculous way to go about evaluating the worth of a car but this is unfortunately how most do it.

Marketers need to do a better job at convincing the public that #'s don't even begin to tell the full story. Until this happens the horse power wars will continue.

They'll continue to produce over powered cars with extremely high limits that aren't much fun to drive unless your on a race track.


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