FWD BRZ Fighter? Thoughts for Nissan Lovers!

UNKNOWN_370 · 03-19-2013, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr750

What makes it fun, its slow, not good on gas mileage, cheaply constructed.

It might be fun to drive on a auto cross course or tear up a local parking lot, but thats about it. I drove one about a yr ago and it did nothing for me.

A Mazda RX8 is a lot better car and more fun than the BRZ.

I even just test drove one again with my wife in shopping for a new car for her and she hated it and decided on a loaded 13 V6 honda accord.

I'll accept the highlighted.

But you're kinda going all over the place in your thoughts right now. I'm saying that there are more variables to a car being fun over hp and rwd.

gsxr750 · 03-19-2013, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Don't agree with the highlighted statement. With today's technology and material usage in engines. We can pull 280 Naturally-aspirated horses out the engine reliably and add a reliable twin scroll unit adding 90 production hp to the 3.0. Making it a 370hp engine without any reliability issues. Today there are plenty of N/A performance motors pulling out 100hp-125hp per litre reliably, so 280 from a 3.0 before the turbos isn't even all that dramatic... Nissan was pulling 222 hp from 3.0 reliably in 1990. The extra 58 N/A hp with today's technology is nothing.
There are a lots of twin scroll BMW 135's running around with $2,500 "warranteed from factory stage one tunes" making 400-420hp reliably since BMW went from TT to TSST turbo's. The NA engine used by BMW is a weak 230 horses. So boost is playing a larger role than my idea.

A 3.8 engine wouldn't be nearly as fuel efficient and will make it hard for Nissan to reach Future cafe standard goals. Weight would be heavier in the 3.8TT. A new design 3.0TSST or TT might offer a lower center of gravity for better handling as well as keep weight lower than 3100lbs which I doubt would happen with a 3.8TT.
We would lose or be on par with future muscle cars in handling if we seriously don't consider weight reduction... I think the Z being on par with muscle in handling next generation would be an embarrassment to the nissan name. We have always been the best compromise between power and handling and we always super-exceed in handling considered how powerful our cars are... I don't think we should sacrifice that reputation for a few extra horses.

Generally speaking... The modernized, lighter version of the Z32 motor would still be a beast and a half.

Nissan should really design a new Z with the V8 engine from the Titan Truck line, they could easily design it to get over 400 hp reliably.

ZBro16 · 03-19-2013, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

I don't think Nissan is trying to slot a RWD under the Z. That's why they're exploring other drivetrains. At best there will be a low end motor and high end motor for the Z.

Not quite. The AWD platform is in the Juke, it's cheap and very advanced... The chassis of the juke is 2800 lbs in FWD 2900 in AWD. A sport coupe would be lighter than a coupe by 250lbs at least. As long as they stay away from CVT in the sport coupe, it could work.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't consider the Juke AWD to be very advanced, so agree to disagree there. I find the Impreza WRX AWD system to be a notch above it, and they can both be obtained for the same price point.

I would bring up the Altima Coupe as the reason why the sport coupe idea from Nissan needs to try something different (CVT-FWD I4 is the only 2013 option). That car is likely going out of production as Nissan removed the V6 option and the manual tranny altogether and has been completely mum about a redesign to line up with the 5th gen Altima Sedan. What could be fun is even the AWD CVT drivetrain built into a new Altima Coupe, but the Altima platform isn't built for it, so the likelihood of that even happening is slim to none.

As it stands, Nissan doesn't have a MT-AWD platform in production for the American market (I'm not even sure they have that anywhere else either). They would have to build it. They have at least a couple more options for MT-RWD (and even MT-FWD) that would cost them less in R&D dollars. If it costs them a lot in R&D, they won't be able to produce a competitor on their own because the vehicle would be priced too high to compete even if they built it. This is the same reason why Subaru and Toyota had to go in on it together, and they even reused many parts (the transmission is from a Lexus IS).

The reason the BRZ works is because RWD is the desired platform for a fun-to-drive sports car, and the car is relatively inexpensive. AWD is indeed great, but it is more expensive to produce and maintain, so to make a budget minded vehicle like the BRZ and make it meet it head on, it has to be RWD or it's just another car in the mix. Fun to drive usually also includes rowing through gears, and going CVT only will not be the answer, either.

The ball is in Nissan's court though. I hope they can show a bit of the "nissan of old" spirit and make something really fun.

ZBro16 · 03-19-2013, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr750

What makes it fun, its slow, not good on gas mileage, cheaply constructed.

It might be fun to drive on a auto cross course or tear up a local parking lot, but thats about it. I drove one about a yr ago and it did nothing for me.

A Mazda RX8 is a lot better car and more fun than the BRZ.

The RX8 also cost a lot more than the BRZ when it was produced.

Truthfully, a lot of us need to chill out on the BRZ. After all, most (if not all) of us have driven a 370Z for a long time, and going to a BRZ from a Z, well, it should feel cheap! I disagree about the cheap construction from my impressions of it when you are mindful of its pricepoint. I also don't understand your basis for its gas mileage. It does a lot better than a Z does, but it's not blowing the doors off a Prius for MPGs.

UNKNOWN_370 · 03-19-2013, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZBro16

In the grand scheme of things, I don't consider the Juke AWD to be very advanced, so agree to disagree there. I find the Impreza WRX AWD system to be a notch above it, and they can both be obtained for the same price point.

I would bring up the Altima Coupe as the reason why the sport coupe idea from Nissan needs to try something different (CVT-FWD I4 is the only 2013 option). That car is likely going out of production as Nissan removed the V6 option and the manual tranny altogether and has been completely mum about a redesign to line up with the 5th gen Altima Sedan. What could be fun is even the AWD CVT drivetrain built into a new Altima Coupe, but the Altima platform isn't built for it, so the likelihood of that even happening is slim to none.

As it stands, Nissan doesn't have a MT-AWD platform in production for the American market (I'm not even sure they have that anywhere else either). They would have to build it. They have at least a couple more options for MT-RWD (and even MT-FWD) that would cost them less in R&D dollars. If it costs them a lot in R&D, they won't be able to produce a competitor on their own because the vehicle would be priced too high to compete even if they built it. This is the same reason why Subaru and Toyota had to go in on it together, and they even reused many parts (the transmission is from a Lexus IS).

The reason the BRZ works is because RWD is the desired platform for a fun-to-drive sports car, and the car is relatively inexpensive. AWD is indeed great, but it is more expensive to produce and maintain, so to make a budget minded vehicle like the BRZ and make it meet it head on, it has to be RWD or it's just another car in the mix. Fun to drive usually also includes rowing through gears, and going CVT only will not be the answer, either.

The ball is in Nissan's court though. I hope they can show a bit of the "nissan of old" spirit and make something really fun.

In theory, valid points. But we're going to have to see exactly what Nissan has up there sleeve. Rumors of a FWD BRZ fighter. Rumors of other vehicles being designed off the Juke platform. Rumors of multi-engined Z's. We can hash out theories all day. At the end of the day. Nissan isn't saying much and we just don't know.

I agree with Subaru having the best AWD drive systems in affordable cars. TSUV types, I'm going to give it to Jeep. But Nissan makes a great performing AWD. In the G series, you can actually throw the back out. Something you can't do from let's say, Audi or BMW. I wouldn't call Nissan AWD bad. I would still call them advanced. Juke has a lower end version of that but it actually works beautifully imho. Had drive time behind the juke and applaud it's AWD system in general. Couple it with our 7AT and we may have something?

UNKNOWN_370 · 03-22-2013, 11:28 AM

Slightly off topic but on topic

BRZ gets beat by Civic HFP???

Tooo many concessions are being made for this "Farveghnugen" BRZ. The greatest sports car in history got beat by a FWD civic.

2013 Subaru BRZ vs. 2012 Honda Civic Si HFP - YouTube

So what does it beat on the track?

Kia Rio?
Hyundai accent?

Does it tie with elantra coupes?

Will it get defeated by the veloster turbo?

nuTinmuch · 03-22-2013, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Slightly off topic but on topic

BRZ gets beat by Civic HFP???

Tooo many concessions are being made for this "Farveghnugen" BRZ. The greatest sports car in history got beat by a FWD civic.

2013 Subaru BRZ vs. 2012 Honda Civic Si HFP - YouTube

So what does it beat on the track?

Kia Rio?
Hyundai accent?

Does it tie with elantra coupes?

Will it get defeated by the veloster turbo?

Did you watch the video?

"The truth is, the Civic has way stickier tires, and if all things were equal the BRZ would be 2 or 3 seconds faster."

And before you say "but they are the tires it comes with!" -- well, not quite. The thing about the HFP package is that it comes with the wheels, the tire choice is entirely up to you and costs extra. Likewise, it isn't a cheap "package" either.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-si-coupe/hfp.aspx

Read the fine print:

Replacement tires required. Yokohama AVID W4S Ultra High Performance All-Season tires (215/40R18) are recommended but not included in the HFP package.

Also -- on Subaru's AWD system. It's actually a very basic system, way less advanced than most of 'em out there. But that's also why it is so good -- simplicity is good sometimes.

Red__Zed · 03-22-2013, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr750

Nissan should really design a new Z with the V8 engine from the Titan Truck line, they could easily design it to get over 400 hp reliably.

yes, because if there's one thing the Z needs, it's more weight over the front wheels.

Red__Zed · 03-22-2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Slightly off topic but on topic

BRZ gets beat by Civic HFP???

Tooo many concessions are being made for this "Farveghnugen" BRZ. The greatest sports car in history got beat by a FWD civic.

2013 Subaru BRZ vs. 2012 Honda Civic Si HFP - YouTube

So what does it beat on the track?

Kia Rio?
Hyundai accent?

Does it tie with elantra coupes?

Will it get defeated by the veloster turbo?

That result is similar to the Boss LS absolutely destroying the M3. Tire choice is very misleading.

UNKNOWN_370 · 03-22-2013, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch

Did you watch the video?

"The truth is, the Civic has way stickier tires, and if all things were equal the BRZ would be 2 or 3 seconds faster."

And before you say "but they are the tires it comes with!" -- well, not quite. The thing about the HFP package is that it comes with the wheels, the tire choice is entirely up to you and costs extra. Likewise, it isn't a cheap "package" either.

2013 Honda Civic Si Coupe HFP - Official Honda Website

Read the fine print:

Replacement tires required. Yokohama AVID W4S Ultra High Performance All-Season tires (215/40R18) are recommended but not included in the HFP package.

Also -- on Subaru's AWD system. It's actually a very basic system, way less advanced than most of 'em out there. But that's also why it is so good -- simplicity is good sometimes.

The reviews of this thing being fast in the corners is with stock tires. I understand what you're saying but. If this car was so great with stock tires. Supposedly you can drive this car into corners while pushing the limit with ease, on stock tires... It should be able to beat a civicWITH MASSIVE UNDERSTEER on a track even with better tires... The civic still lacks the balance and low COG perfect for corner cutting.

This car gets too much hype. Period.

I'd rather get a car with a strong engine and good handling and build up my suspension, than have a slow azz car with a average suspension, that is so light it gives the illusion of excellent handling.

Subie's system isnt advanced? Kool... It still the best system in a $25,000 car.

UNKNOWN_370 · 03-22-2013, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

yes, because if there's one thing the Z needs, it's more weight over the front wheels.

ZBro16 · 03-22-2013, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch

Did you watch the video?

"The truth is, the Civic has way stickier tires, and if all things were equal the BRZ would be 2 or 3 seconds faster."

And before you say "but they are the tires it comes with!" -- well, not quite. The thing about the HFP package is that it comes with the wheels, the tire choice is entirely up to you and costs extra. Likewise, it isn't a cheap "package" either.

2013 Honda Civic Si Coupe HFP - Official Honda Website

Read the fine print:

Replacement tires required. Yokohama AVID W4S Ultra High Performance All-Season tires (215/40R18) are recommended but not included in the HFP package.

How much is this Civic? (Can't currently watch the vid). My guess is well over $30k like that Mugen edition they used to make. That is a bit more than a BRZ Premium. I have read repeatedly that the stock wheel/tire combo is the weakest link in the car. Edmunds actually replaced the set on their test car with a set of TE37s and stickier rubber and it performed a ton better on their road test.

Quote:

Also -- on Subaru's AWD system. It's actually a very basic system, way less advanced than most of 'em out there. But that's also why it is so good -- simplicity is good sometimes.

What's out there for $25k that's equal or better?

ZBro16 · 03-22-2013, 02:21 PM

The BRZ/FR-S is hyped because it's a fresh take on a cheap RWD sports car. In the current market landscape, there are people that want to have fun but can't justify $30K+ to do it, nor sacrifice the fuel economy. The BRZ does all that. Fun in a cheap package, capable of 30MPG. It's exactly what the "fun car segment" in the current American economy needs, and that's why they're selling like hotcakes.

I have no idea why so many people are nuts over this car being hyped. The enthusiast will ALWAYS find a car that's better than one that gets positive mainstream attention. The same can be said for beer, bands, food, movies, etc.

The point of the BRZ was NEVER to blow the doors off an Evo. The point of the BRZ was to have fun while not breaking the bank. It does exactly that.

UNKNOWN_370 · 03-22-2013, 02:23 PM

Both cars are $26,000. The BRZ starts there, The Civic tops out there.

ZBro16 · 03-22-2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Both cars are $26,000. The BRZ starts there, The Civic tops out there.

Well at least they were smart on the pricing. That's still more than I'd pay for a Civic, but that Mugen edition was retarded levels of expensive.

Yeah I guess the BRZ is roughly 26K starting out (25,495). Either way... that civic may get it now, but the aftermarket presence behind the BRZ is huge, and you have a pretty capable platform to start with for long term bigger power. Won't be long before there is a fairly accessible 350hp build for it, but that would defeat the purpose of saving the money in the first place I guess. I've seen people dump $10K+ into 20 year old 240s though, so I guess it is a "to each his own" scenario.

I have always hated the Prius wheels on the BRZ.

03-22-2013, 11:28 AM	#36 (permalink)
UNKNOWN_370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ny'r livn in tx Posts: 8,687 Drives: well over 130m.p.h. Rep Power: 14858	Slightly off topic but on topic BRZ gets beat by Civic HFP??? Tooo many concessions are being made for this "Farveghnugen" BRZ. The greatest sports car in history got beat by a FWD civic. 2013 Subaru BRZ vs. 2012 Honda Civic Si HFP - YouTube So what does it beat on the track? Kia Rio? Hyundai accent? Does it tie with elantra coupes? Will it get defeated by the veloster turbo? __________________ Favorite Quote. "I'm not gonna kill you... I'm just gonna Bash Your Face In" Jack Nicholson-"The Shining". 1980 Last edited by UNKNOWN_370; 03-22-2013 at 11:31 AM.

03-22-2013, 02:23 PM	#44 (permalink)
UNKNOWN_370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ny'r livn in tx Posts: 8,687 Drives: well over 130m.p.h. Rep Power: 14858	Both cars are $26,000. The BRZ starts there, The Civic tops out there. __________________ Favorite Quote. "I'm not gonna kill you... I'm just gonna Bash Your Face In" Jack Nicholson-"The Shining". 1980

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03-22-2013, 02:21 PM	#43 (permalink)
ZBro16 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 370 Drives: A Z. Rep Power: 14	The BRZ/FR-S is hyped because it's a fresh take on a cheap RWD sports car. In the current market landscape, there are people that want to have fun but can't justify $30K+ to do it, nor sacrifice the fuel economy. The BRZ does all that. Fun in a cheap package, capable of 30MPG. It's exactly what the "fun car segment" in the current American economy needs, and that's why they're selling like hotcakes. I have no idea why so many people are nuts over this car being hyped. The enthusiast will ALWAYS find a car that's better than one that gets positive mainstream attention. The same can be said for beer, bands, food, movies, etc. The point of the BRZ was NEVER to blow the doors off an Evo. The point of the BRZ was to have fun while not breaking the bank. It does exactly that.