ZL1 beats new GT500

Shamu · 07-07-2012, 09:31 AM

CHris Harris sums it up pretty well. While the Ford has ergonomics of a truck and stone aged solid axle that can't handle bumps it's fun as hell. The Chevy is more refined and boring. Too bad Chevy detuned the motor. But then if you did a simple reflash with better tune I suspect you could grab extra ponies from the ZL1 and actually use that extra power.

Ford Shelby GT500 v Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 : Street & Circuit - CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube

I can't see myself in either car. I'd buy a used Porsche 911 turbo and mod it if I wanted something insanely fast for $50K.pretty easy to bolt GT3 suspension on 911 and make simple tweaks to turbo tune to extract 600 hp.

m4a1mustang · 07-07-2012, 09:56 AM

I'd take Pobst's opinion over Harris. But everyone seems to think the GT500 is more fun. And if you're not a pussy its going to be better on track (than the ZL1, and with brake cooling, per Randy).

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

m4a1mustang · 07-07-2012, 11:21 AM

But like you I'd be tracking something other than a ZL1/GT500. I'd buy the GT500 for the fun factor and the "200mph Mustang" factor but mainly I'd just put around town with it.

My limit is 3600lbs!

b1adesofcha0s · 07-07-2012, 03:03 PM

I'm gonna buy an Ariel Atom for the track

m4a1mustang · 07-07-2012, 05:29 PM

I think I'd buy a used race car. Assuming I win the lotto of course.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

b1adesofcha0s · 07-07-2012, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

I think I'd buy a used race car. Assuming I win the lotto of course.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

That would be pretty awesome.

Shamu · 07-07-2012, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s

I'm gonna buy an Ariel Atom for the track

I'm over open track cars. They suck in the rain and are miserable on hot days. I like a roof and real windscreen on my track cars.

Shamu · 07-07-2012, 09:47 PM

I think if I were looking for a car to cruise around in I'd go with more refined ZL1. It's performance isn't all that far off from the outdated but more powerful Mustang. I sat in Mustang and agree ergonomics aren't the best. I think the GT500 is going to retain resale better however so it would be a toss up. I'm not one for the ford verses chevy debates that's for fanboys on either side of Mustang or Camaro ownership. Both cars are pretty neat for what they are. If I lived in the middle of the country with lots of smooth flat roads Mustang would be a possible choice but where I live and drive I have to have a car with real rear suspension. My daily drive is filled with bumpy twisty roads. Solid axle isn't going to cut it for me unfortunately.

Ford Shelby GT500 vs Chevy Camaro ZL1.mp4 - YouTube

Iceagetlc · 07-08-2012, 05:02 AM

Never in the history of muscle cars has "road/track racing" been more important to the Camaro community. I love it.

m4a1mustang · 07-08-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

I think if I were looking for a car to cruise around in I'd go with more refined ZL1. It's performance isn't all that far off from the outdated but more powerful Mustang. I sat in Mustang and agree ergonomics aren't the best. I think the GT500 is going to retain resale better however so it would be a toss up. I'm not one for the ford verses chevy debates that's for fanboys on either side of Mustang or Camaro ownership. Both cars are pretty neat for what they are. If I lived in the middle of the country with lots of smooth flat roads Mustang would be a possible choice but where I live and drive I have to have a car with real rear suspension. My daily drive is filled with bumpy twisty roads. Solid axle isn't going to cut it for me unfortunately.

Ford Shelby GT500 vs Chevy Camaro ZL1.mp4 - YouTube

I drive mine on some pretty messed up roads. I alternate between the 5.0, S2000, and CLK500 for commuting. And previously I had the 370.

There is really no appreciable difference in how the cars handle rough surfaces. They have to be really, really rough to really feel the live axle. So rough that you're concerned about going a little slowly so you don't damage a wheel or tire.

Now, with a watts linkage, I have no panhard arc during travel so a big mid-corner bump doesn't do anything to upset the car at all.

I'm not defending the live axle at all... or promoting it over a good IRS setup, anyways. But the people that complain about it make it seem like it can't handle at all and if you're on some rough road you're just going to die. This isn't the case. Yes, it's old school, and yes, it's not the ideal setup, but it's not as big of a crutch as many would like you to believe.

I'd prefer a good IRS setup to a good live axle setup, but not for reasons of bumpy road performance. The main benefits of a good IRS over the Mustang's present live axle setup are (1) significantly less un-sprung weight, (2) the ability to adjust rear camber, and (3) no-longer having to have conversations like these.

If we were talking about the old four-link live axle setups, then yes, I'd say an IRS would definitely be an improvement on rough surfaces. I had an '03 and those were definitely skittish on those surfaces. The '11 that I have experience with... not so much.

So, in summary, the live axle is old and tired, but it works. It's not as bad as most people say it is. It's just obviously not an ideal setup. I'd love to be able to dial in some negative camber to help with more rear grip and generally have a bit more of a dynamic experience at the rear (that's what she said).

That said, with the watts linkage and 275 width Pilot Super Sports, I am able to get WOT coming out of a 2nd gear corner and flat hook up. With ~450hp that's a pretty good feeling. But I know it could be better. Everything can always be better.

2014 will be interesting. Sub 3,350lbs, 450hp stock, and a (hopefully) good IRS package? Could be a real ringer.

Red__Zed · 07-08-2012, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

I drive mine on some pretty messed up roads. I alternate between the 5.0, S2000, and CLK500 for commuting. And previously I had the 370.

There is really no appreciable difference in how the cars handle rough surfaces. They have to be really, really rough to really feel the live axle. So rough that you're concerned about going a little slowly so you don't damage a wheel or tire.

Now, with a watts linkage, I have no panhard arc during travel so a big mid-corner bump doesn't do anything to upset the car at all.

I'm not defending the live axle at all... or promoting it over a good IRS setup, anyways. But the people that complain about it make it seem like it can't handle at all and if you're on some rough road you're just going to die. This isn't the case. Yes, it's old school, and yes, it's not the ideal setup, but it's not as big of a crutch as many would like you to believe.

I'd prefer a good IRS setup to a good live axle setup, but not for reasons of bumpy road performance. The main benefits of a good IRS over the Mustang's present live axle setup are (1) significantly less un-sprung weight, (2) the ability to adjust rear camber, and (3) no-longer having to have conversations like these.

If we were talking about the old four-link live axle setups, then yes, I'd say an IRS would definitely be an improvement on rough surfaces. I had an '03 and those were definitely skittish on those surfaces. The '11 that I have experience with... not so much.

So, in summary, the live axle is old and tired, but it works. It's not as bad as most people say it is. It's just obviously not an ideal setup. I'd love to be able to dial in some negative camber to help with more rear grip and generally have a bit more of a dynamic experience at the rear (that's what she said).

That said, with the watts linkage and 275 width Pilot Super Sports, I am able to get WOT coming out of a 2nd gear corner and flat hook up. With ~450hp that's a pretty good feeling. But I know it could be better. Everything can always be better.

2014 will be interesting. Sub 3,350lbs, 450hp stock, and a (hopefully) good IRS package? Could be a real ringer.

I'll go one step beyond this and add that with the dynamic toe changes on the 370z, and propensity to over-toe mid-corner, the mustang feels MORE planted in the rear on rough roads than the z did.

MightyBobo · 07-09-2012, 01:51 PM

Which reminds me, Steve - my friend Josh wants to take a spin on a Watts-equipped Mustang. That's his (eventual) plan for his current Mustang, for the track.

m4a1mustang · 07-09-2012, 02:07 PM

Word, I'll be at an MD meet one of these days.

b1adesofcha0s · 07-09-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Word, I'll be at an MD meet one of these days.

I will stab you if he gets a ride before I do!

m4a1mustang · 07-09-2012, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s

I will stab you if he gets a ride before I do!

Stab me with what?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

07-07-2012, 09:31 AM	#166 (permalink)
Shamu A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Nor Cal Posts: 1,059 Drives: 370Z Racecar Rep Power: 19	CHris Harris sums it up pretty well. While the Ford has ergonomics of a truck and stone aged solid axle that can't handle bumps it's fun as hell. The Chevy is more refined and boring. Too bad Chevy detuned the motor. But then if you did a simple reflash with better tune I suspect you could grab extra ponies from the ZL1 and actually use that extra power. Ford Shelby GT500 v Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 : Street & Circuit - CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube I can't see myself in either car. I'd buy a used Porsche 911 turbo and mod it if I wanted something insanely fast for $50K.pretty easy to bolt GT3 suspension on 911 and make simple tweaks to turbo tune to extract 600 hp. __________________ Grant Last edited by Shamu; 07-07-2012 at 09:54 AM.

07-07-2012, 09:56 AM	#167 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	I'd take Pobst's opinion over Harris. But everyone seems to think the GT500 is more fun. And if you're not a pussy its going to be better on track (than the ZL1, and with brake cooling, per Randy). Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2 __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

07-07-2012, 11:21 AM	#168 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	But like you I'd be tracking something other than a ZL1/GT500. I'd buy the GT500 for the fun factor and the "200mph Mustang" factor but mainly I'd just put around town with it. My limit is 3600lbs! __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

07-07-2012, 03:03 PM	#169 (permalink)
b1adesofcha0s A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: MD Posts: 40,963 Drives: HypeTrain Choo Choo! Rep Power: 141	I'm gonna buy an Ariel Atom for the track __________________ Project: b1adeZmobile (2009 370Z) \| Uprev Tune by AAM Competition \| Berk Exhaust Project: b1adeZmobile 2.0 (2014 C7 Z51) \| Corsa Xtreme Exhaust

07-07-2012, 05:29 PM	#170 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	I think I'd buy a used race car. Assuming I win the lotto of course. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2 __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

07-07-2012, 09:47 PM	#173 (permalink)
Shamu A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Nor Cal Posts: 1,059 Drives: 370Z Racecar Rep Power: 19	I think if I were looking for a car to cruise around in I'd go with more refined ZL1. It's performance isn't all that far off from the outdated but more powerful Mustang. I sat in Mustang and agree ergonomics aren't the best. I think the GT500 is going to retain resale better however so it would be a toss up. I'm not one for the ford verses chevy debates that's for fanboys on either side of Mustang or Camaro ownership. Both cars are pretty neat for what they are. If I lived in the middle of the country with lots of smooth flat roads Mustang would be a possible choice but where I live and drive I have to have a car with real rear suspension. My daily drive is filled with bumpy twisty roads. Solid axle isn't going to cut it for me unfortunately. Ford Shelby GT500 vs Chevy Camaro ZL1.mp4 - YouTube __________________ Grant

07-08-2012, 05:02 AM	#174 (permalink)
Iceagetlc Base Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: New Oxford, PA Posts: 139 Drives: '11 STI Limited S2 Rep Power: 14	Never in the history of muscle cars has "road/track racing" been more important to the Camaro community. I love it.

07-09-2012, 01:51 PM	#177 (permalink)
MightyBobo A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,465 Drives: No cars; only bikes Rep Power: 52	Which reminds me, Steve - my friend Josh wants to take a spin on a Watts-equipped Mustang. That's his (eventual) plan for his current Mustang, for the track. __________________ I don't own a car anymore.

07-09-2012, 02:07 PM	#178 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	Word, I'll be at an MD meet one of these days. __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

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