5.0

Red__Zed · 02-02-2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatepotholes

i don't know what you drove, but my Boss 302's handling is far from absolutely, disgustingly amazing even with adj dampers on the hardest setting. my Z handled better than my boss, not only it did not have the brake dive it had far less body roll. Z's steering is just on another level compared to the Boss; far more directly, precise and sensitive.

unless you think 5.0 GT out handles the Boss 302 i find that review slightly biased.

Running the hardest setting on the dampers anywhere in nj is your problem.

Body roll is less, see any objective numbers. It might feel different due to the higher roll rate, but objectively it corners as flat.

Brake dive is worse, not part of handling.

Steering was covered, if you read the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by red6spd

Uh ohhhhh. Disagreement!!!!!!!! Lol. I don't think Dan is a good judge of the Z since he seems to have had such a bad experience with it then I think anyone else on the forum.

Right. Instead, let's listen to the guy who is on his first rwd car, never taken a rwd car to a track or autox, and doesn't understand VD. you are welcome to disagree, but you've been warned before not to come cause trouble here.

m4a1mustang · 02-02-2012, 10:33 AM

I was thinking a little bit earlier about how "handling" is truly subjective. Regardless of numbers or track results how a car "handles" is entirely up to the person driving.

A good example would be the difference in setups between NASCAR cars. If you examine the setups from Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon (same team) you'll find that the setups are completely different. Jimmie Johnson prefers a car that rotates freely to the point where you're turning the car with the right rear wheel. On the other hand Jeff Gordon likes a more neutral car with maybe a hint of understeer. He prefers to steer the car with the front wheels rather than the back wheels.

The interesting part is that even though both setups are almost opposite of one another, they both run similar lap times. They are accomplishing the same result by a different approach. Jeff Gordon might not think Jimmie Johnson's car handles nearly as well as his, even though they're equally as quick.

You could say that perhaps Johnson would prefer driving the 5.0 and Gordon would prefer driving the Z. Whether a car handles well or not is completely up to the driver. Does it do what you want and feel like you want it to feel? If yes, then it handles well. If not, then it doesn't.

In the end it's just a difficult thing to argue because different drivers prefer different feelings. But certainly it's very hard to argue lap times. If a car is fast it's fast... there's no denying that!

ihatepotholes · 02-02-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Running the hardest setting on the dampers anywhere in nj is your problem.

Body roll is less, see any objective numbers. It might feel different due to the higher roll rate, but objectively it corners as flat.

Brake dive is worse, not part of handling.

Steering was covered, if you read the post.

what's that suppose to mean? roads are as flat as it gets by where i live. brake dive is not part of handling?

more body roll "feel" gives drivers less confident, it is a negative no matter how you spin it. i don't care what the number says, significant seat time in both cars tell me Z handles better.

m4a1mustang · 02-02-2012, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatepotholes

what's that suppose to mean? roads are as flat as it gets by where i live. brake dive is not part of handling?

more body roll "feel" gives drivers less confident, it is a negative no matter how you spin it. i don't care what the number says, significant seat time in both cars tell me Z handles better.

That's actually not true. It's personal preference. You might not be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be. For reference, just take a look at the varying spring and damper rates being run on the Z's here. Also look at the varying roll bar sizes.

There is no one perfect setup. Everyone likes their car setup a little bit differently. Driver A might like to run a super stiff rear bar to keep it flat, but Driver B might like to run less bar to get some more roll. It's entirely subjective.

ihatepotholes · 02-02-2012, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

That's actually not true. It's personal preference. You might not be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be. For reference, just take a look at the varying spring and damper rates being run on the Z's here. Also look at the varying roll bar sizes.

There is no one perfect setup. Everyone likes their car setup a little bit differently. Driver A might like to run a super stiff rear bar to keep it flat, but Driver B might like to run less bar to get some more roll. It's entirely subjective.

i can assure you that majority of drivers prefer less body roll.

actually, given a choice i am sure all drivers prefer less body roll. i was given a ride in a friend's 302S, it had significantly less roll. why do you think ford did that?

jpritche · 02-02-2012, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatepotholes

i can assure you that majority of drivers prefer less body roll.

I love body roll.

m4a1mustang · 02-02-2012, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatepotholes

i can assure you that majority of drivers prefer less body roll.

If that was true then everybody would run the stiffest dampers, springs, and roll bars humanly possible. And guess what? The cars would handle like **** as there would be no suspension compliance and the tires would skip across the pavement.

My preference is the least amount of body roll possible while still retaining a compliant suspension. I want to maximize tire contact under all conditions. This means a little bit of roll is going to be required. I'm not going to run super stiff all the time for the reason I gave above.

I guess I'm not a "driver," though.

Honestly I feel like you're mixing body roll with roll rate. The Mustang is very flat in the corners, it just has a faster roll rate than the Z. I'm in the process of tuning that out myself.

Red__Zed · 02-02-2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

If that was true then everybody would run the stiffest dampers, springs, and roll bars humanly possible. And guess what? The cars would handle like **** as there would be no suspension compliance and the tires would skip across the pavement.

My preference is the least amount of body roll possible while still retaining a compliant suspension. I want to maximize tire contact under all conditions. This means a little bit of roll is going to be required. I'm not going to run super stiff all the time for the reason I gave above.

I guess I'm not a "driver," though.

Honestly I feel like you're mixing body roll with roll rate. The Mustang is very flat in the corners, it just has a faster roll rate than the Z. I'm in the process of tuning that out myself.

I plan on learning from your experiences here

ihatepotholes · 02-02-2012, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

If that was true then everybody would run the stiffest dampers, springs, and roll bars humanly possible. And guess what? The cars would handle like **** as there would be no suspension compliance and the tires would skip across the pavement.

if cornering ability is whats most important, then yeah. if my car was strictly track dedicated i would have stiffest coilovers and thickest roll bars and -3 degree cambers all around. just like 302S and 302R.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Honestly I feel like you're mixing body roll with roll rate. The Mustang is very flat in the corners, it just has a faster roll rate than the Z. I'm in the process of tuning that out myself.

i'll make myself a little easier to understand... mustang has too much lateral movement during cornering for my liking. it is not as flat as Z or some other vehicles that i have driven.

Red__Zed · 02-02-2012, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatepotholes

what's that suppose to mean? roads are as flat as it gets by where i live. brake dive is not part of handling?

more body roll "feel" gives drivers less confident, it is a negative no matter how you spin it. i don't care what the number says, significant seat time in both cars tell me Z handles better.

Blindly setting your dampers to full stiff is not a ticket to performance. I've spent a lot of time in nj, and there's maybe a handful of roads where full stiff makes sense. The vast majority will cause you to experience all sorts of negative dynamics running full stiff

Brake dive is what allows the mustang to outbrake the z. Getting weight onto the front tires is crucial for both braking and turning. You'll notice many race teams spend a lot of time trying to allow for sufficient weight transfer while maintaining sufficient stability.

Like Steve said, much of this is subjective, to me (and many others) nose dive is no problem. You're entitled to your preferences, and perhaps should invest in some stiffer front springs.

ihatepotholes · 02-02-2012, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Blindly setting your dampers to full stiff is not a ticket to performance. I've spent a lot of time in nj, and there's maybe a handful of roads where full stiff makes sense. The vast majority will cause you to experience all sorts of negative dynamics running full stiff

Brake dive is what allows the mustang to outbrake the z. Getting weight onto the front tires is crucial for both braking and turning. You'll notice many race teams spend a lot of time trying to allow for sufficient weight transfer while maintaining sufficient stability.

Like Steve said, much of this is subjective, to me (and many others) nose dive is no problem. You're entitled to your preferences, and perhaps should invest in some stiffer front springs.

i love how you just assume that i don't try other settings and you sound like you know about my car better than i do. it is on the most stiff setting because it is the best i could dial the car in after hundreds of miles of trial in each setting. you've spent enough time in nj to experience every road? that's funny, because i keep finding these great roads in NJ that are great for spirited driving.

if you like more body roll and break dive i guess you can say what you said. but "absolutely, disgustingly amazing" tells me you haven't experienced many real sports cars.

m4a1mustang · 02-02-2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatepotholes

i love how you just assume that i don't try other settings and you sound like you know about my car better than i do. it is on the most stiff setting because it is the best i could dial the car in after hundreds of miles of trial in each setting. you've spent enough time in nj to experience every road? that's funny, because i keep finding these great roads in NJ that are great for spirited driving.

if you like more body roll and break dive i guess you can say what you said. but "absolutely, disgustingly amazing" tells me you haven't experienced many real sports cars.

Honestly I don't think you can take that comment at face value. Look deeper and it's disgustingly amazing because the car is a Mustang. A Mustang is not supposed to drive like this. A GT Mustang shouldn't even be within five seconds of an M3 at Willow Springs let alone a tenth of a second. Popular car culture has had us believing for years that at first sight of a corner the Mustang should plow straight off the road into a barrier.

To me, that is why it is so impressive. It's unexpected.

ihatepotholes · 02-02-2012, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Honestly I don't think you can take that comment at face value. Look deeper and it's disgustingly amazing because the car is a Mustang. A Mustang is not supposed to drive like this. A GT Mustang shouldn't even be within five seconds of an M3 at Willow Springs let alone a tenth of a second. Popular car culture has had us believing for years that at first sight of a corner the Mustang should plow straight off the road into a barrier.

To me, that is why it is so impressive. It's unexpected.

yes the current 5.0 is the best mustang ever produced. though it does not mean it is amazing or incredible compare to other competitors. sheer performance wise yes the mustang is amazing especially when you consider the dollar to performance ratio. however, to some people numbers don't mean that much. i value the allover driving experience far above what numbers magazines produce.

it's the new 5.0 coyote that did it for me. nothing will touch it in the 30-40k range.

m4a1mustang · 02-02-2012, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatepotholes

yes the current 5.0 is the best mustang ever produced. though it does not mean it is amazing or incredible compare to other competitors. sheer performance wise yes the mustang is amazing especially when you consider the dollar to performance ratio. however, to some people numbers don't mean that much. i value the allover driving experience far above what numbers magazines produce.

it's the new 5.0 coyote that did it for me. yes the numbers are impressive, but it "feels" more like a pony car than a sports car.

I definitely never contend that it "feels" like a sports car. It feels like a pony car which is a cross between a sports car and a muscle car, and honestly that's how it should feel.

IRS will be a welcome addition if they do it right, and hopefully they do sort out the feedback from the electronic steering box. But as it stands right now it's an absolute blast to drive with a lot of aftermarket potential.

Red__Zed · 02-02-2012, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatepotholes

i love how you just assume that i don't try other settings and you sound like you know about my car better than i do. it is on the most stiff setting because it is the best i could dial the car in after hundreds of miles of trial in each setting. you've spent enough time in nj to experience every road? that's funny, because i keep finding these great roads in NJ that are great for spirited driving.

if you like more body roll and break dive i guess you can say what you said. but "absolutely, disgustingly amazing" tells me you haven't experienced many real sports cars.

I guess it is all relative. To me, a 4000 lb mustang on a solid rear axle that objectively matches or beats a 3300lb "dedicated sports car" and subjectively ranges from "almost as good as" to "better than" in the handling department is amazingly, disgustingly good.

I find your comment about me not driving sports cars funny.

Please do share your nj roads list. I will make sure to hit them up, maybe it will change my mind.

02-02-2012, 10:33 AM	#2 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6963	I was thinking a little bit earlier about how "handling" is truly subjective. Regardless of numbers or track results how a car "handles" is entirely up to the person driving. A good example would be the difference in setups between NASCAR cars. If you examine the setups from Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon (same team) you'll find that the setups are completely different. Jimmie Johnson prefers a car that rotates freely to the point where you're turning the car with the right rear wheel. On the other hand Jeff Gordon likes a more neutral car with maybe a hint of understeer. He prefers to steer the car with the front wheels rather than the back wheels. The interesting part is that even though both setups are almost opposite of one another, they both run similar lap times. They are accomplishing the same result by a different approach. Jeff Gordon might not think Jimmie Johnson's car handles nearly as well as his, even though they're equally as quick. You could say that perhaps Johnson would prefer driving the 5.0 and Gordon would prefer driving the Z. Whether a car handles well or not is completely up to the driver. Does it do what you want and feel like you want it to feel? If yes, then it handles well. If not, then it doesn't. In the end it's just a difficult thing to argue because different drivers prefer different feelings. But certainly it's very hard to argue lap times. If a car is fast it's fast... there's no denying that! __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!