2012 Camaro Z28

Red370

god that car looked awful, thing has nostrils like Djimon Hounsou.

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2011 Mustang 5.0 | 3.55's | Lethal Performance off road H-Pipe | Magnaflow Muffler Delete | JLT CAI/Bama tuned 417whp/ 404 ft/lbs

MMC Racing

Maybe you don't understand the difference between minor face lifts and a redesign..

Mustang 2004 versus Mustang 2005. Now that is a redesign..

Mustang 1998 versus Mustang 1999. Face lift.

The 4th gen F-bodies went through a slow evolution over their run, but nothing more. Even your pictures that you post has the 2nd looking like the first with a body kit.

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frost

Maybe a firehawk is more your style? two less nostrils but same ram air

m4a1mustang

I still think Trans Ams look awesome in that "oh my God it's so ugly it looks awesome" kind of way.

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frost

If you think the difference between those cars is a facelift, we just have completely different eyes. Not to mention (again) the completely different engine. Not like what happened in the middle of the 350z's run, I mean a huge change in engines.

Trips

That Bra, is like the a car cover for the Z?
Its Big and Bloated.

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m4a1mustang

An engine and body work doesn't really constitute a redesign, though.

To me, a redesign = new chassis.

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frost

I can see this logic, BUT what does that mean for new cars, such as the challenger that ride on a chassis that was already in use in other cars for several years? Is the challenger just a charger/magnum/300 with a body kit?

m4a1mustang

No, that logic doesn't work because it's a different model.

Plus, a lot of cars share the same base platforms but much of the chassis is still exclusive to that particular model. You can't just take a Charger and slap a Challenger body on it. Though I am sure you know that.

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frost

:gasp: You mean cars aren't like RC cars and I can't just hoist the shell off one and slap on another? How dare you.

Just a friendly argument, but it seems hard for me to buy into:
- A redesign constitutes a changed chassis
- But a new car can use an old chassis, and that's cool.

In fact, by what you're saying, did the camaro/firebird ever get a redesign? Up until the latest version, they were all f-bodies.

Edit: and as far as it not counting because it's not the same model, the firebird and camaro were different models, but talk about only a couple minor differences. You couldn't even tell what car you were in from the inside.

m4a1mustang

You're not following what I'm saying at all frost.

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Kirkster

And it will still be a Government Motors car...

I was waffling between an 08 Vett Z06, 09 BMW Z4 3.5i, and the 370Z coupe before I got my 370Z roadster.

I could not get over the cheesy GM interior on the Vett. I mean come on, it is a 70K car and they put a window switch in for the Ignition button

I just could not get past the price on the Z4 3.5i especially since it barely out performed the Z Roadster in a strait line(stock, and I hear the easy mods on the Z4 get an easy 80HP without trying hard), and does not outperform it in the twisties.

Unfortunately for me my wife made me go test drive the 370 with her along. The Roadster seats were the deal sealer, she loved them from the first minute. The Touring coupe seats made her completely uncomfortable, and I was not a fan of them either. The bonus of having a convertible again was the final deal sealer.

As I sit here in Jordan she is out driving my car...

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MMC Racing

Lets look at some numbers.. Mustang/Camaro sales in the 4th gen timeframe:

94:123,198/ 119,934
95: 185,986/ 122,844
96: 126,483/ 66,827
97: 100,254/ 95,812
98: 170,642/ 77,198
99: 126,067/ 42,098
00: 218,525/ 45,417
01: 155,162/ 29,009

Mustang never had a power advantage, so why did it outsell the Camaro so badly? Why did GM use the "excuse" of everyone moving to 4 and 6 cyl cars as a reason they cut off production in 2002 yet the Mustang continue to sell well?

My opinion is styling and the lack of a meaningful refresh in almost 10 years was the #1 reason followed by strategic shifts in the next gen chassis to build a new Camaro from.

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Lemers

Yes! Yes it is Frost. And the G coupe is a Z

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frost

Can I follow but just not agree?

Are you actually saying the f-bod twins didn't have a refresh and the mustang did?