True Sports Cars. Who makes the cut?

UNKNOWN_370 · 07-27-2017, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaysEffect

This is not my cup of tea when it comes to debates. But i don't believe this list is accurately depicting what you consider "true" sports car. Most of the cars listed under this imaginary umbrella are not even categorized as "sports cars" but touring cars, muscle cars, GT's (grand touring) or sports touring cars. None of which is defined by weight and size, but power and luxury. Your frustration by what is on the market is not the markets problem. Most cars do not fall under this definition of "sports car" because it's an unreasonably expensive and useless sales category most people do not care for or can not accurately afford with its relation to actual race cars. In reality the affordable "sports car" still accurately reflects what most drivers consider a true sports car in relation to the era in which the term was coined. The 60's to early 80's before the advancement in computer control and F/I.

Most people can not handle the physics of a modern day race car, and even if we could handle it, you're asking for amount of power and suspension geometry that exceeds the laws of the road 99% of the time. The amount of reliable power and suspension features available is an expensive assembly of parts. Back in the 60's, a reliable 250hp was expensive! 250hp is about what you'd expect out of a "affordable" sports car nowadays weighing in under 3000ibs. Anything above that back then was considered muscle cars or exotics, and both filled a niche with massive trade-off's. It's exactly the same now, and to be honest the pricing accurately depicts this. An Audi R8 would absolutely wipe the floor of a BRZ, stock for stock and regardless of the weight difference. The trade off is about 80 thousand dollars and 25% more in maintenance. A 370z may get dragged hard by a Hellcat. The trade off is the Hellcat will burn in hell trying to get around a corner like a Z can.

Race cars today are producing upwards of 600hp easily restricted by performance caps. Getting 600hp out of any engine nowadays (reliably) cost about 25-75k alone not including the chassis. Trying to squeeze that into 2500-3000ibs only further compounds cost figures. No one will ever continue backing a car manufacturer if they put out crappy unreliable cars, certainly expensive ones.
One reason you never here the masses complaining too much about unreliable ecoboxes is because they are boring and CHEAP! Cheap to fix, cheap to replace and cheap to warrant. You here about one Huracan engine exploding and everyone will lose there mind and hang the designers by their neck ties.
We also have to consider the amount of materials need to be split over a significantly larger population, in 1960's there was an estimated 180million people in the US, today there are over 305million. So building 80%+ more v8 supercar engines is never going to be easy or cheap. But 100k boring 2liter engines is significantly more feasible. If the Alfa 4c had the same engine as the 8c with a similar weight, the cost would probably be (at minimum) double what it currently is.

A modded car vs a stock car? How is this a reasonable bases for capabilities?

What exactly are you trying to quantify as reasonable performance per dollar? Do you just want the look and features of a sporty car? or the actual performance prowess its actually capable of on a race track?

65-90k is a massive price gap. 25k dollars can buy you just about any mod that will make a dirt box faster than a stock 911 in a straight line or around corners.

My 94 Mazda rx7 tt is what's missing today.

The Mitsubishi eclipse gsx is what's missing today.

The Porsche 944 turbo is what's missing today.

Balanced vehicles that felt fast. They are either fast n heavy, or light and slow. N the cars that meat these criteria just don't seem worth the price tag

So I decided to go GT. I'll keep my Z. I will trade it at a later time for a nismo. The Evita almost had me. But average modded elantra's kill it at the track. Unacceptable @ 100k. Even if it's only straight line . performance.

If I didn't need some type of space, bigger than a duffel. I'd buy the 4c. Nothing really touches it. But I need space for various reasons

PS. The racecar rant was od. My list only was comparative to a 20year old measurement. But I feel it was the best measurement ever created for a sports enthusiast.

I think I made clear that there were different types of PERFORMANCE cars here.

So what was your point with that?

MaysEffect · 07-27-2017, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

My 94 Mazda rx7 tt is what's missing today.
The Mitsubishi eclipse gsx is what's missing today.
The Porsche 944 turbo is what's missing today.
Balanced vehicles that felt fast. < all under 300hp
I will trade it at a later time for a nismo (why?). The Evita (what?) almost had me. But average modded elantra's kill it at the track (useless argument). Unacceptable @ 100k (why?). Even if it's only straight line I can put a cheap chinese ebay turbo on a old rusty civic and some drag radials and smoke a whole bunch of $100k cars.

PS. The racecar rant was od. My list only was comparative to a 20year old measurement. But I feel it was the best measurement ever created for a sports enthusiast.
I think I made clear that there were different types of PERFORMANCE cars here. >not really

So what was your point with that?

You made it clear what can be defined of a true sports car - and you followed up by listing a whole bunch of cars that do not fit in your specifications or even qualify as a sports car categorically. Again what do you consider "worth the price tag"??? Is 600hp not worth 65k+ dollars? Can any of the cars you just listed make 600hp reliably? I doubt it...unless you dump massive amounts of cash. Can any of those cars you listed out handle your current Z with a good set of tires? I highly doubt it. And the Z is only worth about 35k at max.

Race cars today are the bench mark you are trying to compare things too. Race cars of era's before are what you are trying to compare things too. You stated in your last post you were disappointed and unsatisfied by the offerings on the market and made up a potential price range you feel a car manufacturer should make your hypothetical car in. fact is ALL the manufactures you listed provide a car in that range with an engine capable of producing the power you want and potentially the weight you want. You haven't stated exactly what you are looking for other than the fact you are happy with the Z and unhappy with everything else. Are you saying there isn't a car more expensive worth the cost difference?

Even still based on the original argument, the Z isn't an outright sports car. Its a sports touring car. The 944 turbo is a sports touring car and rx7 and GSX are tuner cars. So you've never really got a "sports car". My point about the race cars was clearly this, sports cars are based closely off of Race cars. And race cars of today are EXPENSIVE, meaning a true SPORTS car is EXPENSIVE. These are your Mclarens mp4's, Audi R8's and GT3's. In which they are lightning fast and relatively light weight.

The fact is there are a whole lot a of cars that will beat and outperform all the cars you just listed. You being unsatisfied with them doesn't really say much. What do you actually want? You also comparing stock cars vs heavily modified ones is also apples an oranges.

Nothing really touches a 4c? really? The 4c is over 5 seconds slower than a z/28 around Laguna Seca and will lose a drag race too. < around the same price now.

UNKNOWN_370 · 07-27-2017, 07:15 PM

I stopped reading your post when you went on the 600HP. Nobody said that. You're creating your own debate by twisting my words.

Watch this video.... it's like the Illuminati just posted it in my YouTube just for you after saying what I said.

Just so you know, my Z comes really close to what I want but nobody really knows how to make one step better without tagging on 100k. N if I wanted 600HP. I'd buy a vette.... SMH

MaysEffect · 07-27-2017, 07:58 PM

I pulled the 600hp figure out of average power figures based on GT race cars. I never said anyone said that. I made the figure to further the discussion on what is a definitive average amount of power of today. I don't know how i'm twisting your words when i'm clearly asking for clarification on what you want. So far what you are saying is that you already have it but want more. If thats the case start modifying it.

I agree the the Z is a perfectly balanced car. And even though the pricing is increasing for unknown reasons, the platform is a great one with very few faults.

You didn't post anything.....

And again you haven't stated anything about what exactly is worth the extra amount of money.
You dont want power, you dont want slow and light...you don't want fast and heavy? What is One step better? There are plenty of cars one step better under 100k...under 65k...probably used under 50k.

UNKNOWN_370 · 07-27-2017, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaysEffect

I pulled the 600hp figure out of average power figures based on GT race cars. I never said anyone said that. I made the figure to further the discussion on what is a definitive average amount of power of today. I don't know how i'm twisting your words when i'm clearly asking for clarification on what you want. So far what you are saying is that you already have it but want more. If thats the case start modifying it.

I agree the the Z is a perfectly balanced car. And even though the pricing is increasing for unknown reasons, the platform is a great one with very few faults.

You didn't post anything.....

And again you haven't stated anything about what exactly is worth the extra amount of money.
You dont want power, you dont want slow and light...you don't want fast and heavy? What is One step better? There are plenty of cars one step better under 100k...under 65k...probably used under 50k.

I have the necessary mods I need. I had been looking for something "special" like my Z. I been waiting forever for a Z35. I got so tired of what I already stated.

I decided I'll MOD a GT car.preferably a Q60. It looks like nothing out there...

I'm think a 35mm drop, sways, intake dp exhaust & tune n I'm good. My interest in the Nismo is based more on experiencing how much better or worse the nismo could be compared to my mods... but also just to have a slightly different body. It's my opinion the best body kit is the nismo... BUT. If I buy a Nismo... it'll be my 3rd Z34 n I had a sudden change of heart.

If you been on here the last couple years I been flip flopping thru various car experiences and trying to find WHAT I consider to be the best balanced sports car that has character. I've driven great cars. Nine stir my soul.

The Z and evo were special.
The GTR is sick but I think I'd rather put in the work on the Q60. Period.

I'm hoping the Z35 will come? At that point I may get a z35 during its refresh phase.

ZCanadian · 07-28-2017, 01:38 PM

True sports cars are all about compromise. Just, instead of compromising performance for the mundane, they compromise what most drivers consider essential. Or, put differently, they often force compromises on the driver.

In the end, I don't know how relevant some 1990's magazine's perception of suitable heights and weights can be today. Whether or not it truly was so even back in the day, is debatable. Interesting, for sure, but not of any use (IMO) for a 2017 purchase decision. The limits imposed by last century's technology made these stats far more important than they are now. Back when "double nickel" had more to do with the price of a pack of smokes than the interstate speed limit, there were lots of cars that would have trouble getting a ticket on a normal road. Now, even a Yaris can get you into "lose your license" territory in under 15 seconds. Today, we have the ability to employ better brakes rubber and suspension, a lighter chassis, lighter and more powerful (and more efficient) engines, better drive trains, aerodynamics, and computer trickery on everything from damping to KERS to displacement to torque vectoring. All that despite the weight and performance penalties imposed by increased safety and environmental regulation and the pressures of the business world on auto makers.

In the end, and in 2017, the BEST CAR (sports or otherwise) is the one that suits you (and often you alone, as that's how full most vehicles on the road are) the best. The BEST COMPETITION SPORTS CAR is the one that will help you win your class. Unless you truly compete your vehicle, the BEST SPORTS CAR is the one that makes you feel the best inside. And that is something only you can judge.

ZCanadian · 07-28-2017, 05:45 PM

I don't know where else to put this, but it does kind of speak to the advancement of technology in sports cars.
Not from 1990's to now, but almost 90 years of tech from what was bleeding edge in the late 1920's, to the best of the best of modern hypercars today.

The format is a bit of a ripoff from Road & Track's article on the Alfa Romeo Typo B P3 from last year (find that and read it if you want to learn some real automotive history).
But Harris does a credible job in explaining how that car must have been the Chiron of its day, and then some.
But it was as much about lightness and simplicity back then, as it is about power and wizardry today. Which is why it relates to this thread.

ZCanadian · 08-17-2017, 05:40 PM

UNKNOWN_370, I think that I found you the perfect sports car.
Might be a bit of a pain to daily - it's hard enough going through a drive-through in the Z - but ain't nobody beating you to the next red light...

The owner says it makes 7,200lbs downforce at 150MPH. That's 3 of my cars!

:-)

07-27-2017, 07:15 PM	#18 (permalink)
UNKNOWN_370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ny'r livn in tx Posts: 8,687 Drives: well over 130m.p.h. Rep Power: 14858	I stopped reading your post when you went on the 600HP. Nobody said that. You're creating your own debate by twisting my words. Watch this video.... it's like the Illuminati just posted it in my YouTube just for you after saying what I said. Just so you know, my Z comes really close to what I want but nobody really knows how to make one step better without tagging on 100k. N if I wanted 600HP. I'd buy a vette.... SMH __________________ Favorite Quote. "I'm not gonna kill you... I'm just gonna Bash Your Face In" Jack Nicholson-"The Shining". 1980 Last edited by UNKNOWN_370; 07-27-2017 at 07:18 PM.

07-28-2017, 01:38 PM	#21 (permalink)
ZCanadian A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Canada Posts: 1,058 Drives: 2013 370Z Rep Power: 60273	True sports cars are all about compromise. Just, instead of compromising performance for the mundane, they compromise what most drivers consider essential. Or, put differently, they often force compromises on the driver. In the end, I don't know how relevant some 1990's magazine's perception of suitable heights and weights can be today. Whether or not it truly was so even back in the day, is debatable. Interesting, for sure, but not of any use (IMO) for a 2017 purchase decision. The limits imposed by last century's technology made these stats far more important than they are now. Back when "double nickel" had more to do with the price of a pack of smokes than the interstate speed limit, there were lots of cars that would have trouble getting a ticket on a normal road. Now, even a Yaris can get you into "lose your license" territory in under 15 seconds. Today, we have the ability to employ better brakes rubber and suspension, a lighter chassis, lighter and more powerful (and more efficient) engines, better drive trains, aerodynamics, and computer trickery on everything from damping to KERS to displacement to torque vectoring. All that despite the weight and performance penalties imposed by increased safety and environmental regulation and the pressures of the business world on auto makers. In the end, and in 2017, the BEST CAR (sports or otherwise) is the one that suits you (and often you alone, as that's how full most vehicles on the road are) the best. The BEST COMPETITION SPORTS CAR is the one that will help you win your class. Unless you truly compete your vehicle, the BEST SPORTS CAR is the one that makes you feel the best inside. And that is something only you can judge. UNKNOWN_370 and Tick64 like this.

07-28-2017, 05:45 PM	#22 (permalink)
ZCanadian A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Canada Posts: 1,058 Drives: 2013 370Z Rep Power: 60273	I don't know where else to put this, but it does kind of speak to the advancement of technology in sports cars. Not from 1990's to now, but almost 90 years of tech from what was bleeding edge in the late 1920's, to the best of the best of modern hypercars today. The format is a bit of a ripoff from Road & Track's article on the Alfa Romeo Typo B P3 from last year (find that and read it if you want to learn some real automotive history). But Harris does a credible job in explaining how that car must have been the Chiron of its day, and then some. But it was as much about lightness and simplicity back then, as it is about power and wizardry today. Which is why it relates to this thread. UNKNOWN_370 likes this.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
So who makes a harness bar for our cars?	Kayzee	Exterior & Interior	3	11-05-2013 08:12 PM
Great cars and coffee makes Jalopnik	DCNISMO	Mid-Atlantic Region	4	08-26-2013 03:10 PM
83 MPG cars available in the UK True or False	zmojo	Other Vehicles	7	11-26-2012 05:35 PM
Alberta Meet May 1st all makes of cars.	Sylvan Lake V	Canada	12	05-03-2010 09:31 PM
The 2009 Nissan 370Z: a true sports car by The Car Guide	AK370Z	Nissan 370Z General Discussions	14	06-21-2009 05:22 PM

07-27-2017, 07:58 PM	#19 (permalink)
MaysEffect Enthusiast Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: SoCal Age: 32 Posts: 383 Drives: Infiniti FX35 Rep Power: 36	I pulled the 600hp figure out of average power figures based on GT race cars. I never said anyone said that. I made the figure to further the discussion on what is a definitive average amount of power of today. I don't know how i'm twisting your words when i'm clearly asking for clarification on what you want. So far what you are saying is that you already have it but want more. If thats the case start modifying it. I agree the the Z is a perfectly balanced car. And even though the pricing is increasing for unknown reasons, the platform is a great one with very few faults. You didn't post anything..... And again you haven't stated anything about what exactly is worth the extra amount of money. You dont want power, you dont want slow and light...you don't want fast and heavy? What is One step better? There are plenty of cars one step better under 100k...under 65k...probably used under 50k.