2018 Toyota Supra

ZCanadian

Correct.

A true DCT transmission does not have a torque converter. Nor a Park gear. It is more akin to a manual than an automatic, although there is a computer in between your shifting and the transmission. Think of it as a robotized manual transmission, not an automatic with manual override.

As someone adeptly pointed out in another thread on this forum, you already have a pilot hydraluic system between your clutch pedal and the actual clutch in a modern manual. And the 370Z will blip the downshifts for you unless you tell it not to. The DCT is an improvement over both.

I can report from my 4C forum that even the most fervent advocates of the 3-pedal layout forget about the difference in about 10 minutes. Those who continue to bellyache about it have simply never driven a true DCT. If anyone is among the latter category, go test drive a true DCT car in manual mode before you judge. In a slow, touring car, 3 pedals are perhaps still preferable. On a real sports car, times have moved on.

Shifts are lightnening fast, and fully driver controlled. You can make them as early or late as you wish, you just cannot slip the clutch. Instead, there are usually different driving modes recognizing varying driving situations (such as comfort, snow, or track), which affect the speed of clutch engagement. However, the opportunity to heel and toe is lost.

gsx95

[QUOTE=ZCanadian;3743593]Correct.


I can report from my 4C forum that even the most fervent advocates of the 3-pedal layout forget about the difference in about 10 minutes. Those who continue to bellyache about it have simply never driven a true DCT. If anyone is among the latter category, go test drive a true DCT car in manual mode before you judge. In a slow, touring car, 3 pedals are perhaps still preferable. On a real sports car, times have moved on.

QUOTE]

I couldn't disagree more. I am on my second GT-R (had an '09 since '08, which I traded in for a '15 in '14), and I would never want to have only a DCT. For me, there is no comparison to driving a manual. Most people who buy a car seem to convince themselves that what they have is better, so in my experience most folks on DCT car forums say they love DCTs. Sure, they are faster and easier to drive (and I obviously love my GT-R, which you might say is the car that made all the other performance cars switch to DCTs). But the skill and involvement of a true manual connects you to the car in ways that a DCT is designed to disconnect you from. A DCT just performs it's function more efficiently than most (all?) people can. I just think that if efficiency is the only goal, then soon we will all be in self driving computer pods.

ZCanadian

[QUOTE=gsx95;3743719]
I have a manual and a DCT. Will take the DCT over 3 pedals every day of the week, unless I’m just out Sunday driving. The DCT is faster shifting, and way more consistent on the track to not unsettle the car when at the limit (not just my words). It is also easier on the clutch(es) in traffic.

It is true that it is far easier to master a DCT (and I’ve far from mastered a manual), but the feedback I get from other drivers who also have cars with either, including track instructors, is that they feel as close a connection with the DCT car as they do with the third pedal, and are faster around any course.

However, to each their own. As long as the choice is offered. Except that more and more it isn’t.

gsx95

[QUOTE=ZCanadian;3743758]I feel like your defense of the DCT is actually bolstering my point. Of course it shifts faster. Of course it is more consistent. Of course it is easier in traffic. There is a certain group of skills historically requiring mastery to drive well. It is what separates excellent race car drivers from the rest of us. Now we are allowing a computer to assume the responsibility for one of those skills, and of course the computer is much better at it than we are. The computer will also be much better, faster and smoother at steering input, brake modulation and hitting brake points, acceleration out of turns, etc. It is all but guaranteed that these skills will be taken over by technology that is better at it than we are. If going faster around a track is the ultimate goal, humans will soon just be along for the ride. It is already happening. If the satisfaction of mastering skills and techniques is the goal, anything that assumes control over them is detrimental to that. And for the record...I am master of nothing! I just enjoy the attempt.

I do agree that having a choice is most important, but I don't understand why a truly dedicated car enthusiast wants to develop fewer driving skills.

DLSTR

[QUOTE=gsx95;3743942]Most major racing series feature a DCT / sequential gearbox. They would also fit the race car master category. You like manual gearbox. Thats all your saying and you didnt make a point. If anything you are missing it. Race drivers are not driving manuals so they lack skills LOL???????????

gsx95

[QUOTE=DLSTR;3744080]Yup. They lack the skills of previous generations of racers. And their ONLY goal is to go fast around a track. Is that yours as well?

ZCanadian

[QUOTE=gsx95;3744108]Well, my goal isn't to go SLOWEST around the track!

There are plenty of driving skills to go around. Heel-toe is just one, and really only critical to shorten stopping distances, preserve car balance near the limit, and protect the clutch and drive train BECAUSE OF the limitations of the 3-pedal manual gearbox. Pretty much everything else that you do with a traditional manual transmission (determining the shift point or engine braking for instance) is no different in a DCT. You just do it faster in a dual clutch manual.

And, for the record, I would say that modern racers do not lack in skill when compared with their predecessors. Given today's speeds, and the horsepower available in current cars, I think that a great many heroes of the past might wet themselves - or at least be appreciative that engineering gave them quicker, more predictable shifts without having to take their hands off the wheel or their left foot off the dead pedal!

DLSTR

[QUOTE=gsx95;3743719]Its about managing the power more effectively than the leg can do. You can actually use the power better and not damage the drive line/system. Your servo clutch already disconnects you from the car. The manual has been gone for much longer than most realize.

I feel connected to my cars by driving them. It has very little to do with what system manages the power in the gearbox. The totality of the experience is the connection. Too much so called 'enthusiast' focus on this manual obsession. Almost they seem to miss the point of the rest of the car.