[OFFICIAL] Discussion for the next new Nissan 400Z Z35?

FPenvy · 09-13-2016, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

The Z is so small, BSM is unnecessary if you drive it like you're supposed to.

I agree. The car is tiny if you need help knowing where the back of the car is you probably shouldn't be driving lol

FPenvy · 09-13-2016, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

How does it save on weight? It actually adds weight because the steering column is still there but it's disengaged for driving use. If there was an emergency, there's extra parts that will hydraulically shove the steering column into the steering wheel and you'll go from a emotionless video game driving experience to the most vague and numb EPAS in history aside from BMW's EPAS....

ILL PASS ON BOTH.... HYDRAULIC RACK N PINION ALL DAY OR BUST.

I seriously hope that IF there is a new Z they do not put any of that electronics steering nonsense in it.

It would break my fuckin heart to pass on a newer more powerful (hopefully good looking) Z due to some engineer thinking he knows better than drivers.

I work with engineers everyday trust me most can't even tie their shoes correctly let alone properly drive a vehicle haha

Jordo! · 09-13-2016, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

How does it save on weight? It actually adds weight because the steering column is still there but it's disengaged for driving use. If there was an emergency, there's extra parts that will hydraulically shove the steering column into the steering wheel and you'll go from a emotionless video game driving experience to the most vague and numb EPAS in history aside from BMW's EPAS....

ILL PASS ON BOTH.... HYDRAULIC RACK N PINION ALL DAY OR BUST.

If it doesn't save weight or work well then I recant.

I thought the point was that it did. Why include as an exclusive option on their Red Sport model if it hampers actual, measurable handling performance? It isn't listed as a luxury or safety option as far as I can tell.

2017 Infiniti Q60 Coupe Models | Infiniti USA

If it sucks and/or it isn't an option for the Z, then I'm just wrong on that point, at least for this version of the technology.

Like I said, I am intrigued by the idea, but only see mention on it "potentially" saving weight, so if it's confirmed to add weight, please give me the link.

As to hydraulics and rack and pinion "all day every day", there's nothing inherently special about any particular technology, so I'm fine with steer-by-wire so long as it works well. I'm not opposed to it (or for it) solely on principle or anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

I seriously hope that IF there is a new Z they do not put any of that electronics steering nonsense in it.

It would break my fuckin heart to pass on a newer more powerful (hopefully good looking) Z due to some engineer thinking he knows better than drivers.

I work with engineers everyday trust me most can't even tie their shoes correctly let alone properly drive a vehicle haha

Engineers actually do usually know better than drivers -- although one hopes a good engineer will also take driver feedback into account when they engineer stuff.

When's the last time you composed a letter on a typewriter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

I agree. The car is tiny if you need help knowing where the back of the car is you probably shouldn't be driving lol

It won't feel tiny without having at least power steering -- which, BTW, is an engineered technology that adds weight and more mechanical interference between the driver and the act of steering the car.

It ain't a MX-5 or Fiat.

EDIT: Sorry, I must have misread that if you just were talking about the rear camera, rather than handling

On the camera: I dunno, personally, I like the rear camera, but I don't see it as any more or less necessary than any other item that improves visibility.

FPenvy · 09-13-2016, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

If it doesn't save weight or work well then I recant.

I thought the point was that it did. Why include as an exclusive option on their Red Sport model if it hampers actual, measurable handling performance? It isn't listed as a luxury or safety option as far as I can tell.

2017 Infiniti Q60 Coupe Models | Infiniti USA

If it sucks and/or it isn't an option for the Z, then I'm just wrong on that point, at least for this version of the technology.

Like I said, I am intrigued by the idea, but only see mention on it "potentially" saving weight, so if it's confirmed to add weight, please give me the link.

As to hydraulics and rack and pinion "all day every day", there's nothing inherently special about any particular technology, so I'm fine with steer-by-wire so long as it works well. I'm not opposed to it (or for it) solely on principle or anything.

Engineers actually do usually know better than drivers -- although one hopes a good engineer will also take driver feedback into account when they engineer stuff.

When's the last time you composed a letter on a typewriter?

It won't feel tiny without having at least power steering -- which, BTW, is an engineered technology that adds weight and more mechanical interference between the driver and the act of steering the car.

It ain't a MX-5 or Fiat.

EDIT: Sorry, I must have misread that if you just were talking about the rear camera, rather than handling

On the camera: I dunno, personally, I like the rear camera, but I don't see it as any more or less necessary than any other item that improves visibility.

I never got into the backup cams. All vehicles I typically drive besides the Z have them and I never even look at them when backing up or parking.

UNKNOWN_370 · 09-13-2016, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

If it doesn't save weight or work well then I recant.

I thought the point was that it did. Why include as an exclusive option on their Red Sport model if it hampers actual, measurable handling performance? It isn't listed as a luxury or safety option as far as I can tell.

2017 Infiniti Q60 Coupe Models | Infiniti USA

If it sucks and/or it isn't an option for the Z, then I'm just wrong on that point, at least for this version of the technology.

Like I said, I am intrigued by the idea, but only see mention on it "potentially" saving weight, so if it's confirmed to add weight, please give me the link.

As to hydraulics and rack and pinion "all day every day", there's nothing inherently special about any particular technology, so I'm fine with steer-by-wire so long as it works well. I'm not opposed to it (or for it) solely on principle or anything.

Engineers actually do usually know better than drivers -- although one hopes a good engineer will also take driver feedback into account when they engineer stuff.

When's the last time you composed a letter on a typewriter?

It won't feel tiny without having at least power steering -- which, BTW, is an engineered technology that adds weight and more mechanical interference between the driver and the act of steering the car.

It ain't a MX-5 or Fiat.

EDIT: Sorry, I must have misread that if you just were talking about the rear camera, rather than handling

On the camera: I dunno, personally, I like the rear camera, but I don't see it as any more or less necessary than any other item that improves visibility.

Nissan was looking for the quickest steering response possible and they achieved that much. The Q60 will most likely have more point & shootability than most exotics.... But at the expense of COMPLETE AND TOTAL steering feel loss. You get as much feedback as a corpse and the steering artificiality is unreal. So you have to play guessing games on what your tires are doing. You won't know till you hear it....

No thanks.

Jordo! · 09-14-2016, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

I never got into the backup cams. All vehicles I typically drive besides the Z have them and I never even look at them when backing up or parking.

I literally never thought about or missed them until I got a Z that had it. Now I really like it, but I agree its not exactly "absolutely necessary" or anything.

I think we're starting to see a lot of changes in what defines a "pure sports car" (you and me both like our 7AT's, for example -- a contentious issue, as you know...

)

In any case, the sensation of a "direct" connection" to mechanical devices is a weird thing... when a new technology is introduced, there is usually some resistance from the stalwarts who liked the version they grew to love.

In the end, I think the subjective experiences of the operator (beyond some metric of performance) tends to evolve with the the tech, and the operator will discover new and/or different challenges to focus on that take advantage of the new tech.

Lots of people disliked fuel injection, but in the end, as the tech got better, tuning has become more flexible, and now tuning with a laptop is as fundamental to motorsports as turning a wrench or screwdriver.

That said, certainly new, but badly performing tech is nothing to get too excited about until it improves, so I may have been way off base on steer-by-wire. I'll stick by my "intrigued at the potential" and recant the "lighter" comment, which may be incorrect...

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Nissan was looking for the quickest steering response possible and they achieved that much. The Q60 will most likely have more point & shootability than most exotics.... But at the expense of COMPLETE AND TOTAL steering feel loss. You get as much feedback as a corpse and the steering artificiality is unreal. So you have to play guessing games on what your tires are doing. You won't know till you hear it....

No thanks.

Ehhh... maybe. All mechanical feedback is a subjective experience (power steering feels waaaay different than non-power steering, but unless the car is very light, its also a real work out to wrestle the car in the direction you want). That said, a total lack of road feedback is counterproductive, but the road feedback you get is always tuned via dampers, so its a continuum.

Look at it this way: Our arms and hands get in the way of trying to do what our brains want it to do. If their steer-by-wire makes the command from a driver's brain nudge the car where the driver wants with greater precision, I think there will be more happy than unhappy drivers in the end.

The way I see it, more precise control doesn't necessarily mean a numb, disconnected experience, devoid of challenge -- ideally it means new and higher limits can be conquered because of greater responsiveness and less fighting every little bump in the road (remember those Nismo mass chassis dampers?).

I'm hoping for more "jinba ittai" instead of "less fun" (although I wouldn't consider a near-telepathic steering operation to be no fun...)

Modern cars go a lot faster and handle a lot better -- but it's pretty much always at the cost of some direct feedback that may offer a more visceral experience, but also demands more effort to overcome just to go where your brain already decided it wants to go.

Ever try and drive a car with some extra toe dialed into the alignment? Now that's a wild and visceral experience that demands enormous focus and skill to not spin out. Having tried that, I will pass

Anyway, I'll reserve judgment until I see what a steer-by-wire Q60 can do on a skidpad. If it can pull a G without any drama, I'm in. I'll adapt to the different (less?) road feel.

sx moneypit · 09-14-2016, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

I never got into the backup cams. All vehicles I typically drive besides the Z have them and I never even look at them when backing up or parking.

njobe89 · 09-14-2016, 09:15 AM

rear cameras are mandatory now on cars as a safety feature.

UNKNOWN_370 · 09-14-2016, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

I literally never thought about or missed them until I got a Z that had it. Now I really like it, but I agree its not exactly "absolutely necessary" or anything.

I think we're starting to see a lot of changes in what defines a "pure sports car" (you and me both like our 7AT's, for example -- a contentious issue, as you know...

)

In any case, the sensation of a "direct" connection" to mechanical devices is a weird thing... when a new technology is introduced, there is usually some resistance from the stalwarts who liked the version they grew to love.

In the end, I think the subjective experiences of the operator (beyond some metric of performance) tends to evolve with the the tech, and the operator will discover new and/or different challenges to focus on that take advantage of the new tech.

Lots of people disliked fuel injection, but in the end, as the tech got better, tuning has become more flexible, and now tuning with a laptop is as fundamental to motorsports as turning a wrench or screwdriver.

That said, certainly new, but badly performing tech is nothing to get too excited about until it improves, so I may have been way off base on steer-by-wire. I'll stick by my "intrigued at the potential" and recant the "lighter" comment, which may be incorrect...

Ehhh... maybe. All mechanical feedback is a subjective experience (power steering feels waaaay different than non-power steering, but unless the car is very light, its also a real work out to wrestle the car in the direction you want). That said, a total lack of road feedback is counterproductive, but the road feedback you get is always tuned via dampers, so its a continuum.

Look at it this way: Our arms and hands get in the way of trying to do what our brains want it to do. If their steer-by-wire makes the command from a driver's brain nudge the car where the driver wants with greater precision, I think there will be more happy than unhappy drivers in the end.

The way I see it, more precise control doesn't necessarily mean a numb, disconnected experience, devoid of challenge -- ideally it means new and higher limits can be conquered because of greater responsiveness and less fighting every little bump in the road (remember those Nismo mass chassis dampers?).

I'm hoping for more "jinba ittai" instead of "less fun" (although I wouldn't consider a near-telepathic steering operation to be no fun...)

Modern cars go a lot faster and handle a lot better -- but it's pretty much always at the cost of some direct feedback that may offer a more visceral experience, but also demands more effort to overcome just to go where your brain already decided it wants to go.

Ever try and drive a car with some extra toe dialed into the alignment? Now that's a wild and visceral experience that demands enormous focus and skill to not spin out. Having tried that, I will pass

Anyway, I'll reserve judgment until I see what a steer-by-wire Q60 can do on a skidpad. If it can pull a G without any drama, I'm in. I'll adapt to the different (less?) road feel.

The keyword in all you said is VISCERAL. in my opinion. If the experience isn't visceral. It's not a car worth buying. So while technology May have progressed over the years at the expense of feedback. I don't see how losing a connection to the road will ever be good for motor sports. We've always fallen back to trying to maintain some type of feedback through the wheel with each technological breakthrough. These 6 years is the first time in history that many car companies are choosing tech over a complete driving experience IN SPORTS CARS. Another key factor. These are sports cars not passenger vehicles.

Companies like Alfa Romeo, Jaguar, Lotus and Mercedes have all taken steps to ensure feedback is a sensation NOT mitigated in order to boost the overall drivers experience. I say if I can name 4 companies that have made feedback a priority in our high tech state of the auto industry? So can the rest. Even Mazda, who uses electric steering have found a way to provide feedback. It's all important in a sports car. I don't see how FEEDBACK can be considered subjective in a car type that's intentionally designed to stir the senses even morsso than provide power?

While the progressive mentality may say tally ho and on with technology. Which is great if we're not talking about a niche group of performance vehicles.... I don't think we need to progress to the point where we kill VISCERAL, in the driving experience in cars designed purely for SPORTING INTENTIONS. My Z is very direct. I've found only flaws in my suspension and the numbness in my steering wheel under 15mph, which I'm never there. I don't need my car to feel like my playstation. I need my PlayStation to feel like my car.

ZHighlander · 09-14-2016, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

I never got into the backup cams. All vehicles I typically drive besides the Z have them and I never even look at them when backing up or parking.

Sure, but just because you haven't found a use for it, doesn't mean they're not useful to others. I enjoy the precision the Backup cam offers when squeezing into tight spots, particularly when there's very little space between cars, in parallel parking.

UNKNOWN_370 · 09-14-2016, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZHighlander

Sure, but just because you haven't found a use for it, doesn't mean they're not useful to others. I enjoy the precision the Backup cam offers when squeezing into tight spots, particularly when there's very little space between cars, in parallel parking.

I thinnk the keyword in FP's statement is "I"

JARblue · 09-14-2016, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZHighlander

Sure, but just because you haven't found a use for it, doesn't mean they're not useful to others.

Pretty sure he never said it wasn't useful to others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZHighlander

I enjoy the precision the Backup cam offers when squeezing into tight spots, particularly when there's very little space between cars, in parallel parking.

Exactly the kind of spot I wouldn't want to park the Z

Plus, I prefer to keep my backing and parallel parking skills honed by using them and not relying on technology to do it for me.

And these blind spot and lane monitoring and many other so-called safety features IMO achieve the exact opposite of their intended purpose by making people more reliant on driver aids so they can pay less attention to actual driving

b15 · 09-14-2016, 03:28 PM

I won't lie, I do like the backup camera at times because the blind spots in this car suck. Not a deal breaker item though

mishuko · 09-14-2016, 03:31 PM

I can guarantee you those blind spot indicators mean ****. If you don't look you don't look. In fact I've been run out of my lane and almost side swiped by all those sport SUV piece of .... drivers on the regular on local roads. I see the fakers blind spot light up too

mishuko · 09-14-2016, 03:33 PM

I don't have a back up cam but thunk they would be a good check for the blind spots that my mirror and rear window can't catch. Or the ******** that like to crouch behind my car?

09-14-2016, 09:15 AM	#2663 (permalink)
njobe89 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2014 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 5,227 Drives: 2013 370z BS 6MT Rep Power: 174284	rear cameras are mandatory now on cars as a safety feature. cautupwitdm and MagmaRed370z like this. __________________ 2 plus 2 times 2 = ? ... hint, it's not 8 Stillen CBE, Stillen Gen 3, TP's, Uprev tuned - 324whp/264tq

09-14-2016, 03:28 PM	#2668 (permalink)
b15 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,229 Drives: 4drz Rep Power: 36571	I won't lie, I do like the backup camera at times because the blind spots in this car suck. Not a deal breaker item though Jordo! likes this.

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09-14-2016, 03:31 PM	#2669 (permalink)
mishuko A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: bouncin on tigga Posts: 8,062 Drives: '12 Z Rep Power: 9435	I can guarantee you those blind spot indicators mean ****. If you don't look you don't look. In fact I've been run out of my lane and almost side swiped by all those sport SUV piece of .... drivers on the regular on local roads. I see the fakers blind spot light up too

09-14-2016, 03:33 PM	#2670 (permalink)
mishuko A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: bouncin on tigga Posts: 8,062 Drives: '12 Z Rep Power: 9435	I don't have a back up cam but thunk they would be a good check for the blind spots that my mirror and rear window can't catch. Or the ******** that like to crouch behind my car?