[OFFICIAL] Discussion for the next new Nissan 400Z Z35?

njobe89 · 06-21-2016, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

Why do I keep seeing people saying that the nismo will be the 400hp and the regular Z only 300. That would be the most retarded thing Nissan could ever do. Imo the Z will be 400 and the nismo will be a tuned version at 430-450hp

with you for once lol

RicerX · 06-21-2016, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey

You're stretching the dollars a little.

Maybe a bit, but not quite as much as you think, especially if we're looking at it from the overall sports car package.

Quote:

A Miata starts at $25K, the FR-S $26K, and the Z at 30K, rounding up. And, the Corvette starts at $55K, which is $13K more than the NISMO.

If you consider the full package of amenities, the Miata Club at $28,600 has roughly the exact equipment as a Sport Tech Z at $37,070 (except more updated) - nearly $10k. I don't know many people that want the base equipment in either car (which is VERY base in the Z for today's standards - a radio with 2 speakers and a USB port as a prime example.)

As far as the BRZ, I refreshed myself a bit on Subaru's site, and I'll concede there. I've made the argument that the BRZ is borderline worthless compared to the Z in the past, and I'll stand by that rather than trying to use it to back my case in this particular argument. **** that car.

On the other end of the argument, the Vette at $55,400 comes with Brembos and Bose along with the updated infotainment that you'd expect in a car at that price, and it takes a $45,490 Nismo Tech to get closest, package for package.

Not trying to muddy your point - your approach is fine. Just clarifying my approach.

Quote:

I don't know about you, but I'm not that comfortable throwing the word "only" in front of $13K when I'm talking about relatively useless depreciating assets like 2-seat cars that probably can't function as anything other than a weekend toy very effectively. Not that you did, but, point being, $10K is a lot of ******* money to most people.

That is an exceptionally fair point to the front end of the argument. For the NISMO/Vette side of it, not so much. If you're in the market for a $45k NISMO, I don't see how you don't at least consider pricing a Vette, especially since there are incentives out there on the Stingrays. (RANT: I don't know that I spend $41,990 on a NISMO and don't at least think about a Tech trim so I can get "tech" that comes standard in a $19k Sentra - this might be a different converstation if Nissan didn't just throw in the tech at the $41k pricing.)
I know you could work a dealer on the price of a new Z, but at that level, why wouldn't you consider the Vette? Sure there's budgeting a buyer needs to consider, but that's where the Z is running into trouble on the top end of its offerings- it's too close to a piece of the market where the majority of its buyers care less about a $10k price difference at this level of car. My point is that the Z doesn't have what it takes to play in that space and retain a significant portion of the market.

Finally, if you're shopping $50k sports cars and you're whining about $10k, go home. You're drunk. Maybe you need to stay around $30k. Or maybe you don't need a sports car.

Quote:

Does a Z "do" 4K more than an FR-S? Or $5K more than a Miata?

Does a Z do everything you need for $23K less than a Corvette?

Is the NISMO worth $10K more than a base Z, even though it isn't actually faster?

These are subjective questions, but my answer is "Yes."

See bolded text. However, here, you're admitting that a base Z is nearly worthless to consider in the scope of this argument. Allow me to elaborate...

Quote:

Further, consider the Cayman, which costs a little more than $20K more than the 370Z and has a slower 0-60 time. How can Porsche justify that kind of performance to dollar ratio? Why wouldn't you just buy a Corvette instead, for the same money? I guess *you* would, but I would not.

You make too many assumptions. It's about the package. The entire argument is about the package of each car.

1) Because Porsche. Neither Nissan nor Chevrolet compare to the overall fit and finish you get with a car that comes from a company that has never even dabbled in things like economy cars or full sized trucks. Porsche makes sports cars. The end. The Corvette is nice... the Z is nice... but if you're a sports car connoisseur, it's a Porsche.

2) If all there is to look at is the 0-60 time, I'm surprised there aren't more muscle cars around here. The Cayman does everything else better than the Z at the base model level (even when compared to the sport Z). It's lighter and boasts nearly a tenth of a g better in lateral acceleration (0.99 vs 1.06). It's faster through the slalom at a couple MPH as well. Equip the PDK transmission, and that takes care of the 0-60 deficiency. Like I always preach... it's the PACKAGE. Do we even need to talk about fit and finish here? The NISMO's interior barely knocks on the door of a base Cayman. I imagine visibility and seating position are things to consider in a performance car... both of which are better in the Cayman.

Plus, you'd compare a base Z, complete with open differential, sissy brakes, and terrible tires to a base Cayman, which has none of those things? Let's not reach too far here.

Quote:

The Z needs to be improved, but it's still a good value vs. the Camaro and Mustang if you want a car that feels like a sports car and not a fat tub of V8 boat for your $30K (I've driven the new Mustang and it's great but it's no Z), given that you don't really care that you're a few 10ths slower in the quarter mile. It's still a good value compared to the Corvette and Cayman because it provides some of the experience of a powerful sports car for tens of thousands less. It's still a good value compared to the Miata and FR-S because it provides some of the experience of an inexpensive driver-focused car without being underpowered.

I'm not really sure what more you could expect for $30K.

A 2016 Camaro SS (at the same price of a Sport Tech Z) boasts better braking, better acceleration, better roadholding, and better tech for the same money. Regardless of the "feel" of the car, these are the numbers, and the numbers don't lie. A 4.0s 0-60, a 12.4s 1/4mi, and a 0.97g roadholding. Stock. Out of a car that outweighs the Z by 400lbs. $37k for $37k.

Even if we stick to your beloved $30k figure, the new V6 Camaro is damned close to the Z, and you only concede on the acceleration and braking, but still retain equal handling ratings while gaining better fuel economy.

This used to be a car that handled like a houseboat and got rocked by a 350Z. That's called evolving your product. Case in point - if the Z has to take a couple years off to get retooled the way the Camaro got retooled, sign me up. Otherwise, the value for dollar of the Z has slipped in the wake of the evolving competition.

RicerX · 06-21-2016, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

Why do I keep seeing people saying that the nismo will be the 400hp and the regular Z only 300. That would be the most retarded thing Nissan could ever do. Imo the Z will be 400 and the nismo will be a tuned version at 430-450hp

1) Those two motors exist with Infiniti. Wouldn't have to retool anything. Focus on reducing weight. Makes business sense.

2) If those two motors came through with the Z brand and followed similar pricing structure of the 370 (starting $30k, premium model $42k), you can have your bargain sports car at the bottom and premium, high performance version at the top, and both of which would be extremely compelling alternatives to the current offering of sports cars in the same pricing category.

It makes complete sense, especially when you consider the torque curve of each motor - both of those motors provide increased performance potential stock-for-stock when compared to the VQ37.

brucelidat · 06-21-2016, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

Why do I keep seeing people saying that the nismo will be the 400hp and the regular Z only 300. That would be the most retarded thing Nissan could ever do. Imo the Z will be 400 and the nismo will be a tuned version at 430-450hp

This would be nice, but we're trying to be realistic with our expectations. Nissan already has the 300hp tuned engine and if they want to offer a less expensive option, they would probably use it to not compete against the higher output options. I find it very hard to believe Nissan will release a 400hp Z in the mid 30s. Iw would really detract from the 400hp q60. We see the Z differently than Nissan does. I don't think in their mind, the Z needs to be substantially or at all more powerful than the q(g)50/60. The Z to them is the downmarket more enthusiast version.

FPenvy · 06-21-2016, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brucelidat

This would be nice, but we're trying to be realistic with our expectations. Nissan already has the 300hp tuned engine and if they want to offer a less expensive option, they would probably use it to not compete against the higher output options. I find it very hard to believe Nissan will release a 400hp Z in the mid 30s. Iw would really detract from the 400hp q60. We see the Z differently than Nissan does. I don't think in their mind, the Z needs to be substantially or at all more powerful than the q(g)50/60. The Z to them is the downmarket more enthusiast version.

I hope they don't release a 300hp in the mid 30k range. Although the same engine with different tune minus the speed density add ons to the turbos is the same as the 400hp engine. At this point I'm just over this random speculation. Not one of us knows anything for sure just hopes and dreams.

I have no problem paying whatever they charge of its 400hp TT decent weight 3300 or less with good interior/options and they don't rape the exterior look.

Hell my sticker of my 2009 was 44 or 45k. Couple more thousand for TT and updated I'm cool with that.

Dirk McGurck · 06-21-2016, 01:29 PM

Oh, and I want them to fix the hi-beam dash light with the new Z.

UNKNOWN_370 · 06-21-2016, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bshields22

No way anyone is going to buy a Z35 for $60K as wonderful as these cars are and like everyone has already mentioned, your getting into another class of car for that amount.

Just some food for thought though...I've noticed some of these Z35 articles coming out of Australia, where the price for cars is about double then what is is here in the US. There may be some confusion with this $60K price tag floating around.

I watch an Australian review of the Z34 and they said a new one will cost you some staggering amount...

Given the right specs, weight, transmission, power and technology. I would. That's what matters.

brucelidat · 06-21-2016, 06:52 PM

The thread title is really old and just people throwing out a number. There is no info that suggests that the z35 will be 60k so people can stop talking about that price now.

UNKNOWN_370 · 06-21-2016, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

I hope they don't release a 300hp in the mid 30k range. Although the same engine with different tune minus the speed density add ons to the turbos is the same as the 400hp engine. At this point I'm just over this random speculation. Not one of us knows anything for sure just hopes and dreams.

I have no problem paying whatever they charge of its 400hp TT decent weight 3300 or less with good interior/options and they don't rape the exterior look.

Hell my sticker of my 2009 was 44 or 45k. Couple more thousand for TT and updated I'm cool with that.

My prediction

2.0t. $27,000
3.0tt 300/ $33,000
3.0tt 400/ $39,000
NISMO 450/$50,000

Optioned out roping near $60,000.

MagmaRed370z · 06-21-2016, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

My prediction

2.0t. $27,000
3.0tt 300/ $33,000
3.0tt 400/ $39,000
NISMO 450/$50,000

Optioned out roping near $60,000.

3.0TT please , Thank you.

Davey · 06-21-2016, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicerX

Maybe a bit, but not quite as much as you think, especially if we're looking at it from the overall sports car package.

If you consider the full package of amenities, the Miata Club at $28,600 has roughly the exact equipment as a Sport Tech Z at $37,070 (except more updated) - nearly $10k. I don't know many people that want the base equipment in either car (which is VERY base in the Z for today's standards - a radio with 2 speakers and a USB port as a prime example.)

As far as the BRZ, I refreshed myself a bit on Subaru's site, and I'll concede there. I've made the argument that the BRZ is borderline worthless compared to the Z in the past, and I'll stand by that rather than trying to use it to back my case in this particular argument. **** that car.

On the other end of the argument, the Vette at $55,400 comes with Brembos and Bose along with the updated infotainment that you'd expect in a car at that price, and it takes a $45,490 Nismo Tech to get closest, package for package.

Not trying to muddy your point - your approach is fine. Just clarifying my approach.

That is an exceptionally fair point to the front end of the argument. For the NISMO/Vette side of it, not so much. If you're in the market for a $45k NISMO, I don't see how you don't at least consider pricing a Vette, especially since there are incentives out there on the Stingrays. (RANT: I don't know that I spend $41,990 on a NISMO and don't at least think about a Tech trim so I can get "tech" that comes standard in a $19k Sentra - this might be a different converstation if Nissan didn't just throw in the tech at the $41k pricing.)
I know you could work a dealer on the price of a new Z, but at that level, why wouldn't you consider the Vette? Sure there's budgeting a buyer needs to consider, but that's where the Z is running into trouble on the top end of its offerings- it's too close to a piece of the market where the majority of its buyers care less about a $10k price difference at this level of car. My point is that the Z doesn't have what it takes to play in that space and retain a significant portion of the market.

Finally, if you're shopping $50k sports cars and you're whining about $10k, go home. You're drunk. Maybe you need to stay around $30k. Or maybe you don't need a sports car.

See bolded text. However, here, you're admitting that a base Z is nearly worthless to consider in the scope of this argument. Allow me to elaborate...

You make too many assumptions. It's about the package. The entire argument is about the package of each car.

1) Because Porsche. Neither Nissan nor Chevrolet compare to the overall fit and finish you get with a car that comes from a company that has never even dabbled in things like economy cars or full sized trucks. Porsche makes sports cars. The end. The Corvette is nice... the Z is nice... but if you're a sports car connoisseur, it's a Porsche.

2) If all there is to look at is the 0-60 time, I'm surprised there aren't more muscle cars around here. The Cayman does everything else better than the Z at the base model level (even when compared to the sport Z). It's lighter and boasts nearly a tenth of a g better in lateral acceleration (0.99 vs 1.06). It's faster through the slalom at a couple MPH as well. Equip the PDK transmission, and that takes care of the 0-60 deficiency. Like I always preach... it's the PACKAGE. Do we even need to talk about fit and finish here? The NISMO's interior barely knocks on the door of a base Cayman. I imagine visibility and seating position are things to consider in a performance car... both of which are better in the Cayman.

Plus, you'd compare a base Z, complete with open differential, sissy brakes, and terrible tires to a base Cayman, which has none of those things? Let's not reach too far here.

A 2016 Camaro SS (at the same price of a Sport Tech Z) boasts better braking, better acceleration, better roadholding, and better tech for the same money. Regardless of the "feel" of the car, these are the numbers, and the numbers don't lie. A 4.0s 0-60, a 12.4s 1/4mi, and a 0.97g roadholding. Stock. Out of a car that outweighs the Z by 400lbs. $37k for $37k.

Even if we stick to your beloved $30k figure, the new V6 Camaro is damned close to the Z, and you only concede on the acceleration and braking, but still retain equal handling ratings while gaining better fuel economy.

This used to be a car that handled like a houseboat and got rocked by a 350Z. That's called evolving your product. Case in point - if the Z has to take a couple years off to get retooled the way the Camaro got retooled, sign me up. Otherwise, the value for dollar of the Z has slipped in the wake of the evolving competition.

Moving the goalposts, eh?

That's nice.

Davey · 06-21-2016, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicerX

Maybe a bit, but not quite as much as you think, especially if we're looking at it from the overall sports car package.

Oh the "overall sports car package"...

Quote:

If you consider the full package of amenities, the Miata Club at $28,600 has roughly the exact equipment as a Sport Tech Z at $37,070 (except more updated) - nearly $10k. I don't know many people that want the base equipment in either car (which is VERY base in the Z for today's standards - a radio with 2 speakers and a USB port as a prime example.)

USB ports, eh? Now I understand who I'm discussing sports cars with I guess.

I thought were talking about "driver's cars" comparable to the Z, and you want to break out the tally sheet for cupholders and USB ports. I guess if that's what's important to you then there are better options than the Z, the cupholder isn't even very big.

Quote:

the BRZ is borderline worthless

Agreed.

Quote:

That is an exceptionally fair point to the front end of the argument. For the NISMO/Vette side of it, not so much. If you're in the market for a $45k NISMO, I don't see how you don't at least consider pricing a Vette, especially since there are incentives out there on the Stingrays. (RANT: I don't know that I spend $41,990 on a NISMO and don't at least think about a Tech trim so I can get "tech" that comes standard in a $19k Sentra - this might be a different converstation if Nissan didn't just throw in the tech at the $41k pricing.)
I know you could work a dealer on the price of a new Z, but at that level, why wouldn't you consider the Vette? Sure there's budgeting a buyer needs to consider, but that's where the Z is running into trouble on the top end of its offerings- it's too close to a piece of the market where the majority of its buyers care less about a $10k price difference at this level of car. My point is that the Z doesn't have what it takes to play in that space and retain a significant portion of the market.

3.9% APR for 60 months is an "incentive"?

Quote:

Finally, if you're shopping $50k sports cars and you're whining about $10k, go home. You're drunk. Maybe you need to stay around $30k. Or maybe you don't need a sports car.

Rich people care about $10K too. People who are bad with money don't. People who "could care less" about $10K (and really don't need to) are far less common than you seem to realize.

Quote:

See bolded text. However, here, you're admitting that a base Z is nearly worthless to consider in the scope of this argument. Allow me to elaborate...

This is where you lost me. I didn't admit that. I would have had to have said it to admit it, which I clearly didn't.

Quote:

You make too many assumptions. It's about the package. The entire argument is about the package of each car.

Oh I see, it's about the package...

Quote:

A 2016 Camaro SS (at the same price of a Sport Tech Z) boasts better braking, better acceleration, better roadholding, and better tech for the same money. Regardless of the "feel" of the car, these are the numbers, and the numbers don't lie. A 4.0s 0-60, a 12.4s 1/4mi, and a 0.97g roadholding. Stock. Out of a car that outweighs the Z by 400lbs. $37k for $37k. .

Oh wait, it's about the numbers.

I'd love to continue to discuss your points, but I'm afraid you don't seem to really have any idea what they are.

FPenvy · 06-23-2016, 01:05 PM

https://www.facebook.com/stillen/vid...4309936333921/

New Q60S in person.

JARblue · 06-23-2016, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

https://www.facebook.com/stillen/vid...4309936333921/

New Q60S in person.

Who the fuck are you?

Ghostvette · 06-23-2016, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JARblue

Who the fuck are you?

06-21-2016, 01:29 PM	#1956 (permalink)
Dirk McGurck Track Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Delaware Posts: 715 Drives: 09 MB 370Z Touring Rep Power: 21	Oh, and I want them to fix the hi-beam dash light with the new Z. __________________ 2009 370Z Touring with Sport

06-21-2016, 06:52 PM	#1958 (permalink)
brucelidat A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: temple city, ca Posts: 2,432 Drives: 2011 370z 7AT GM Sp Rep Power: 31	The thread title is really old and just people throwing out a number. There is no info that suggests that the z35 will be 60k so people can stop talking about that price now. __________________ Works Emotion CR Ultimate - FI CBE w/ 18" resonators - Ecutek - eibach sways - Quaife - FI LTH w/race cats - kw v3 - spl - Topgunz SC - 488whp 398trq

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