[OFFICIAL] Discussion for the next new Nissan 400Z Z35?

Magic Bus · 03-01-2016, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell

Why wouldn't they sell a manual? It helps lower the price of the car. I don't think Nissan cares about how many manual cars they sell. I always thought one of the selling points of the Z was price and if Nissan still cares about that selling point then they will still offer a manual.

I don't think that it will lower the price of the car, as I highly doubt that they'd use the same manual transmission as in our current Z. So a new one would have to be developed, which would increase expenses for R&D and retooling of the assembly plant costs. Currently the Z, Q50/Q60 & GTR are assembled in the same plant in Japan and if they continue this business model. It's just seems much more cost efficient to use the same engines & trans as the Q cars. Plus add to the fact that Carlos Ghosn's M.O. is one of cost efficiency and it doesn't appear good for a MT option.

Chevrolet/GM and BMW, which come quickly to my mind, have multiple cars that will share a manual trans, thus making it much more cost efficient than a specially made transmission for a single low volume sales car. Hope I'm wrong, but at this point, with no manual trans for the Q60. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't come with one, or the manual trans will be an add on option with a higher cost than it's automatic sibling.

Dirk McGurck · 03-01-2016, 05:23 AM

They can use the same transmission, and just change the bell housing and CSC.

LA370z · 03-01-2016, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kay.zee

Says the guy who roll races an automatic z on the highway ... Go crash and burn Paul walker style

Jesus man...........

RicerX · 03-01-2016, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magic Bus

I don't think that it will lower the price of the car, as I highly doubt that they'd use the same manual transmission as in our current Z. So a new one would have to be developed, which would increase expenses for R&D and retooling of the assembly plant costs. Currently the Z, Q50/Q60 & GTR are assembled in the same plant in Japan and if they continue this business model. It's just seems much more cost efficient to use the same engines & trans as the Q cars. Plus add to the fact that Carlos Ghosn's M.O. is one of cost efficiency and it doesn't appear good for a MT option.

Chevrolet/GM and BMW, which come quickly to my mind, have multiple cars that will share a manual trans, thus making it much more cost efficient than a specially made transmission for a single low volume sales car. Hope I'm wrong, but at this point, with no manual trans for the Q60. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't come with one, or the manual trans will be an add on option with a higher cost than it's automatic sibling.

I think this is the one situation where Ghosn will be forced to concede on the cost-efficiency option as far as transmission offerings.

The Z primarily sells to the Z cult following. If you eliminate the manual transmission, you had better hope that your potential conquest sales base is large enough to compensate for the Z cult buyers that will undoubtedly buy something else. A large chunk of the cult Z buyers have the buying power to move to something like a Porsche Cayman S or 911 to get their purist MT sports car. The Corvette also comes to mind.

They can dork with engine choices all they want. This was already tested when they abandoned the carburetor ... tested again when they boosted... tested again when they abandoned the straight six... tested again when they went back to NA. As long as it makes appropriate power, you'll keep the OGs. The way power can be made has certainly evolved since the carb'ed 240Z days. One might argue that the way power is put to the ground has evolved, but there's more at stake than efficiency here - we're talking about engagement with the driver. The Z is one car that has to go against the grain of automated numbnut machines being stamped out with CVTs and tempurpedic seats.

Chuck33079 · 03-01-2016, 09:50 AM

But if the Z platform is the only one using the manual, sales most likely won't be where they need to be to justify the tooling, etc. When they could use the manual on the G as well, they could spread the costs around. If it's gone for the G, it's bad news for the Z.

Z cult buyers were barely keeping this model on life support. They won't base a decision like this on the wants of a group who buys >5k cars a year. They want mass success, not something propped up by a very small group of enthusiasts.

Mancub · 03-01-2016, 09:58 AM

I'm wondering if one day manufacturers will start making faux manuals and charging a premium. Manuals have died for the normal driver, now they are dying for enthusiasts.

Personally, I wouldn't trade my 7AT for anything. I had a 2013 Altima with that stupid CVT. ::shudder::

Glad that nightmare is over.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

RicerX · 03-01-2016, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

But if the Z platform is the only one using the manual, sales most likely won't be where they need to be to justify the tooling, etc. When they could use the manual on the G as well, they could spread the costs around. If it's gone for the G, it's bad news for the Z.

Z cult buyers were barely keeping this model on life support. They won't base a decision like this on the wants of a group who buys >5k cars a year. They want mass success, not something propped up by a very small group of enthusiasts.

Sure, but look at how many other cars are out there in and around this segment that are using one-off transmissions. The Miata and the BRZ are two examples of this. You also have to look at the market mix. What was the take rate on the Z coupe as far as manual vs automatic? If it's larger than 30%, then there is your incentive to produce it. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

Also - where does the new Z coupe compete? Is it in the Miata/BRZ space? If so, you have to build a manual judging by the take rates in each of those cars (about 50% on average). Is it in the Camaro/Mustang space? If so, it'd be the only one offered without a manual if it went that route, regardless of trim. Is it a premium sports car offering like the Corvette and Cayman/911? Needs a manual.

I am one that agrees that automated dual clutch transmissions are where the future of speed lies in performance cars. However, we're not quite there yet with respect to adoption due to many external factors, but the main one is this - we may be the last generation of buyers that gives a **** about a manual transmission, and they gotta flush us out first. Right now, there's strength in numbers on our side.

Given that the transmission used in the new Q50/Q60 twin turbos is little more than the 7AT used on the M56/Q70 5.6 (needed to handle the torque of the new motor), there's room for an updated 6MT. We all know that the current 6MT can handle added power on the current Z. I don't see it as much of a stretch to R&D an appropriate bell housing and slap the current 6MT on either the 300hp turbo 6 or the 400hp turbo 6. They didn't go too crazy with the automatic, and that's where the bread and butter of Infiniti sales are.

Also - the take rate on the G was 5% or less (I read it in an interview a while back... I'll try to dig it up) and in the space that the G/Q competes, the manual option is borderline non-existent. They're not going to lose prospective buyers for this specific offering in the luxury sport space, but I see them losing prospective Z buyers if they do not offer one. Different demographic altogether.

mishuko · 03-01-2016, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

But if the Z platform is the only one using the manual, sales most likely won't be where they need to be to justify the tooling, etc. When they could use the manual on the G as well, they could spread the costs around. If it's gone for the G, it's bad news for the Z.

Z cult buyers were barely keeping this model on life support. They won't base a decision like this on the wants of a group who buys >5k cars a year. They want mass success, not something propped up by a very small group of enthusiasts.

I'm going to assume they will have both options... but on the manual one they will keep the same old CSC... again to force auto's on us.

and unfortunately the last part is true. take queue the recent base price cuts needed to help stimulate sales.

mind you an issue with this car is it came out during the recession / financial crisis and a lot of people that had disposable income to buy a sports car was in question when they needed something more practical. at the release it was great in terms of competition. nothing really in 09'.

since the economy has been recovering (albeit slowly) and the reemergence of the middle class they have more money to blow on sports cars and then we have more choice/options now for the price of the Z...

Magic Bus · 03-01-2016, 01:51 PM

Ricer, In your above example of the Miata, yes it still has a manual trans but that's because they're using the same trans as always. No need to retool the factory to do this, kind of like the current Z, keeping the manual trans adds no additional cost to keep it in the line up.

Regarding the BRZ, that's not a singular trans for a singular vehicle. FRS also uses it and I'm sure it came from some other Subaru model.

As Chuck has also mentioned above, the Z is in a very small market. Then add to the fact that the manual trans driver is a niche buyer in this small market, and it won't make sense to build it, especially for a $$ guy like Carlos Ghosn.

Also keep in mind, Nissan's ultimate sports car, the GTR came out with no manual trans. While I would love to be wrong and have Nissan come out with a 400hp manual trans Z. I'm not going to hold out for this.

Chuck33079 · 03-01-2016, 02:05 PM

Ricer, the only issue with the cars you compare it against is that they all sell 10x times what a Z does. They sell hundreds of thousands of Miata, mustangs and camaros. The frs uses the same off the shelf Aisin tranny that toyotas used in other cars. The German cars have a higher margin on them, so you can absorb the costs easier. It's easy to amortize a bunch of different options when you sell like that. When you move 5k units a year, we're lucky they didn't completely kill it again.

Not to mention, Porsche has been moving away from manuals for a while now, Benz doesn't have one and bmw has only a very few models available. Only the Vette in your list is really easily available with a stick. It's sad, but that's the way the world seems to be going.

Dirk McGurck · 03-01-2016, 02:43 PM

How is the Toybaru using the same transmission as any of Toyota's other cars?

Chuck33079 · 03-01-2016, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk McGurck

How is the Toybaru using the same transmission as any of Toyota's other cars?

It's the same gearbox as the one in the IS250. Not sure what other ones it's available in.

Magic Bus · 03-01-2016, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

It's the same gearbox as the one in the IS250. Not sure what other ones it's available in.

Yes, Chuck is correct. One of the earlier concepts of the 86 cars came with the Subaru engine and gearbox from the Impreza. However actual production ended up with the Subaru engine and gearbox from the IS250. Production for both cars are done at the Subaru plant in Gunma Japan.

UNKNOWN_370 · 03-01-2016, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicerX

I think this is the one situation where Ghosn will be forced to concede on the cost-efficiency option as far as transmission offerings.

The Z primarily sells to the Z cult following. If you eliminate the manual transmission, you had better hope that your potential conquest sales base is large enough to compensate for the Z cult buyers that will undoubtedly buy something else. A large chunk of the cult Z buyers have the buying power to move to something like a Porsche Cayman S or 911 to get their purist MT sports car. The Corvette also comes to mind.

They can dork with engine choices all they want. This was already tested when they abandoned the carburetor ... tested again when they boosted... tested again when they abandoned the straight six... tested again when they went back to NA. As long as it makes appropriate power, you'll keep the OGs. The way power can be made has certainly evolved since the carb'ed 240Z days. One might argue that the way power is put to the ground has evolved, but there's more at stake than efficiency here - we're talking about engagement with the driver. The Z is one car that has to go against the grain of automated numbnut machines being stamped out with CVTs and tempurpedic seats.

Another Gloriously, well executed and precise opinion from Ricer X.

If thread posts were the movie twins. You'd be shawarzenegger..

And whatever Danny devito flushed down the toilet in the bathroom scene... That would a be a Jungle Z post.

Dirk McGurck · 03-02-2016, 05:19 AM

FTR, I'd buy a 911 R over a Z if I was a wealthy businessman.

03-01-2016, 05:23 AM	#1607 (permalink)
Dirk McGurck Track Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Delaware Posts: 715 Drives: 09 MB 370Z Touring Rep Power: 21	They can use the same transmission, and just change the bell housing and CSC. RicerX likes this. __________________ 2009 370Z Touring with Sport

03-01-2016, 09:50 AM	#1610 (permalink)
Chuck33079 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 12,265 Drives: 2011 370ztt Rep Power: 29539	$60K for next new Z35? But if the Z platform is the only one using the manual, sales most likely won't be where they need to be to justify the tooling, etc. When they could use the manual on the G as well, they could spread the costs around. If it's gone for the G, it's bad news for the Z. Z cult buyers were barely keeping this model on life support. They won't base a decision like this on the wants of a group who buys >5k cars a year. They want mass success, not something propped up by a very small group of enthusiasts. __________________ 2011 MB Touring-Sport-6sp-Nav/GTM TT/FI TT TDX/JTran/Kosmic/Eibach/Hotchkis/SPC/CSF/RPS/SoThatsWhereAllMyMoneyWent

03-01-2016, 02:05 PM	#1615 (permalink)
Chuck33079 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 12,265 Drives: 2011 370ztt Rep Power: 29539	$60K for next new Z35? Ricer, the only issue with the cars you compare it against is that they all sell 10x times what a Z does. They sell hundreds of thousands of Miata, mustangs and camaros. The frs uses the same off the shelf Aisin tranny that toyotas used in other cars. The German cars have a higher margin on them, so you can absorb the costs easier. It's easy to amortize a bunch of different options when you sell like that. When you move 5k units a year, we're lucky they didn't completely kill it again. Not to mention, Porsche has been moving away from manuals for a while now, Benz doesn't have one and bmw has only a very few models available. Only the Vette in your list is really easily available with a stick. It's sad, but that's the way the world seems to be going. __________________ 2011 MB Touring-Sport-6sp-Nav/GTM TT/FI TT TDX/JTran/Kosmic/Eibach/Hotchkis/SPC/CSF/RPS/SoThatsWhereAllMyMoneyWent Last edited by Chuck33079; 03-01-2016 at 02:10 PM.

03-01-2016, 02:43 PM	#1616 (permalink)
Dirk McGurck Track Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Delaware Posts: 715 Drives: 09 MB 370Z Touring Rep Power: 21	How is the Toybaru using the same transmission as any of Toyota's other cars? __________________ 2009 370Z Touring with Sport

03-02-2016, 05:19 AM	#1620 (permalink)
Dirk McGurck Track Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Delaware Posts: 715 Drives: 09 MB 370Z Touring Rep Power: 21	FTR, I'd buy a 911 R over a Z if I was a wealthy businessman. __________________ 2009 370Z Touring with Sport

03-01-2016, 09:58 AM	#1611 (permalink)
Mancub Base Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 39 Drives: 15 Nissan 370Z MR A7 Rep Power: 10	I'm wondering if one day manufacturers will start making faux manuals and charging a premium. Manuals have died for the normal driver, now they are dying for enthusiasts. Personally, I wouldn't trade my 7AT for anything. I had a 2013 Altima with that stupid CVT. ::shudder:: Glad that nightmare is over. Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

03-01-2016, 01:51 PM	#1614 (permalink)
Magic Bus A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2012 Location: Honolulu Posts: 1,427 Drives: 17 6MT M2 Rep Power: 18755	Ricer, In your above example of the Miata, yes it still has a manual trans but that's because they're using the same trans as always. No need to retool the factory to do this, kind of like the current Z, keeping the manual trans adds no additional cost to keep it in the line up. Regarding the BRZ, that's not a singular trans for a singular vehicle. FRS also uses it and I'm sure it came from some other Subaru model. As Chuck has also mentioned above, the Z is in a very small market. Then add to the fact that the manual trans driver is a niche buyer in this small market, and it won't make sense to build it, especially for a $$ guy like Carlos Ghosn. Also keep in mind, Nissan's ultimate sports car, the GTR came out with no manual trans. While I would love to be wrong and have Nissan come out with a 400hp manual trans Z. I'm not going to hold out for this.

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