370z roof won't move warning light on

qubickz

This is the part I essentially need to fix...

Rebuild/Upgrade Service for Nissan 370Z Left Tonneau Cylinder - Top Hydraulics, Inc

^^ but it's not a hydraulic issue, it's a sensor issue.

I've attached a screenshot of the part that is failing if anyone has any advice.

Attached Images

rebuild-upgrade-service-for-nissan-370z-left-tonneau.jpg (19.0 KB, 67 views)

Bummer

Any chance the piston isn't driving far enough for the sensor to adequately sense its presence? If it's coming up a fraction of an inch short the sensor may not "make" adequately.

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Steve

TopHydraulics

Good point. If the cylinder does not extend all the way for some reason, then the sensor will not provide the proper signal.

However, if the cylinder does not extend far enough, then that also means the storage cover isn't opening all the way. qubickz or his mechanics would have probably noticed that. A hydraulic cylinder not extending all the way is almost always caused by loss of hydraulic fluid somewhere in the system. One would think that qubickz's mechanics would have noticed hydraulic fluid leaking somewhere, if this was the case. Then again, this is a fairly new issue for Nissan dealers, and many of them have not encountered it yet.

Klaus

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Top Hydraulics, Inc -- Upgrading/rebuilding convertible top hydraulic cylinders and pumps for Nissan 370Z roadsters and over 30 other brands. Manufacturing new, superior hydraulic hoses for convertible tops.

http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/73-nissan-370z-09-13

TopHydraulics

Sorry to hear about your trouble, and congrats on getting the first portion fixed! With the help of this forum, chafed wires on the 370Z convertible top wiring will soon be more easily recognized and fixed without spending a fortune on it...

The dealer has obviously hooked up the computer to the car, and found the intermittent reading that way. Question is, is it really the sensor that is bad?
Let's make sure first that the wires from the controller to the sensor are intact, that the sensor is firmly clipped into the cylinder, and that the cylinder is extending all the way (meaning, the storage cover is opening all the way).

qubickz, could you please confirm the above?

Klaus

Top Hydraulics, Inc

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Top Hydraulics, Inc -- Upgrading/rebuilding convertible top hydraulic cylinders and pumps for Nissan 370Z roadsters and over 30 other brands. Manufacturing new, superior hydraulic hoses for convertible tops.

http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/73-nissan-370z-09-13

TopHydraulics

Some of the eight hydraulic cylinders in the 370Z roadster's convertible top have sensors on them. Those sensors are not actually switches, but "Hall Effect Sensors". They give the ECU (soft top controller) information about the cylinder status in a fancy manner. These detectors react to the change of magnetic field near the sensor, which has a magnet built in. When the steel shaft inside the hydraulic cylinder moves, the magnetic field around the magnet in the Hall Effect sensor changes. That results in different currents being read from a modulated signal that is sent through the sensor, and the controller can thus determine whether the cylinder's shaft is extended or not.

These sensors are fairly accurate and they have a low failure rate (because they are solid state sensors without moving parts in them). The sensor itself gets blamed far too often for a false reading, when it is actually a bad wire or a poor connection in a plug, or when the sensor has accidentally been slightly dislodged by someone working on the system.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you are proposing. Let's put it this way: The sensor is mounted on this specific cylinder for a reason. You cannot bypass it. If the sensor was not needed, then it would not be there.

Sorry, I cannot see any photos attached.

Am I reading correctly between the lines that the sensor is sometimes telling the system the storage cover is open even though it is not? As opposed to not always signalling that the storage cover cylinder is fully extended when it actually isn't?

I will propose a fairly simple experiment once we know with reasonable certainty that the sensor is really the problem.

Klaus

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Top Hydraulics, Inc -- Upgrading/rebuilding convertible top hydraulic cylinders and pumps for Nissan 370Z roadsters and over 30 other brands. Manufacturing new, superior hydraulic hoses for convertible tops.

http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/73-nissan-370z-09-13

OldGuyFla

Hi, Keep us updated with your progress & good luck!

I agree fully with you on Nissan's handling of the top repairs & availability of parts.

Bummer

Just musing/wondering:

Couldn't the hydraulic fluid leak past the piston seal, thereby providing no external evidence of a leak?

How sensitive is the sensor? Would the difference in position really be noticeable? There haven't been all that many Roadsters made, so any (all?) given shop(s) couldn't have had much experience with them. Would they recognize a quarter inch (just guessing) droop in a corner of the lid?

Couldn't one test this by putting a bit more opening pressure on the top/front corner of the lid on that side to see if the sensor makes and stays made?

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Steve

TopHydraulics

That is theoretically true, but it would be very rare for a 370Z of this age. (If it were a late model Mercedes SL or SLK and if we were talking about some latching cylinders, then I'd be singing a different tune right now.) Top Hydraulics does replace and upgrade all seals inside these cylinders, including the piston seals, btw.
On the tonneau cover (storage compartment) cylinder, there is very little pressure needed at the end of the stroke (when the cover is almost open). Some convertible systems have check valves to keep the tonneau cover open when the rest of the top is moving past it, some convertible systems have a dedicated valve for the tonneau cover cylinders (not the 370Z), and some convertibles keep pressure on the tonneau cylinders while the rest of the top is moving. If memory serves me correctly on a late Sunday afternoon, then the 370Z's system keeps the tonneau cover cylinders pressurized.

Good question. Under normal circumstances, the sensitivity should be in the range of a few millimeters. That would translate into a lot more on the end of the tonneau cover, and it should be noticeable.

Good thought, and it would be worth a try if the problem occurs only during the part of the cycle where the tonneau cover has just opened, and if the 370Z system is one of those which do not keep the tonneau cover cylinder pressurized once extended.

At some point, qubickz remarked "Seems pretty silly that the car thinks the top is open because of this sensor". This would indicate that we needn't concentrate on an internal bypass.

I'm looking forward to qubickz's clarifications.

Klaus

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Top Hydraulics, Inc -- Upgrading/rebuilding convertible top hydraulic cylinders and pumps for Nissan 370Z roadsters and over 30 other brands. Manufacturing new, superior hydraulic hoses for convertible tops.

http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/73-nissan-370z-09-13

Bummer

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I intend to keep my Z Roadster until one of us turns to dust, so I want to learn all I can about it. Over the years I've worked on industrial systems that included hydraulics, but this is way more elaborate.

I would love to see a detailed, step-wise explanation of the problem starting with e.g. "I'm sitting in the car with the top up. I press the button to open the top. ..."

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Steve

qubickz

Thanks for showing interest in assisting me with this nutty issue. Alright, to answer your questions:

Wires from controller to sensor: I can only assume the connection is solid. When looking at the harness, it appears to be all one harness and no major interruptions in the wiring.

Sensor is firmly clipped into the cylinder: It does appear to be firmly clipped. It's within the grooves and does not appear to have been moved or loose. I can provide closer photos, but it looks solid.

Cylinder is extending all the way (meaning, the storage cover is opening all the way): This is tricky... It appears that this is the case, but, I have also been having an issue where the storage cover and the rear window (when it lifts/retracts) will smack each other, as if it's not opening fully... Here's the issue though. On the driver hydraulic side, I believe it only senses if the top is closed.. The passenger side hydraulic senses both open and closed (it has two sensors on the cylnder).

Here's a few observations:

When opening/closing the top (when it does work) the storage cover and the actual top smack each other, with about an inch of room where if you manually open the cover up more, it won't smack.

When temperatures are 80 degrees or more, the operation of the top fails a lot less. The hotter it gets (90 degrees+) I have almost zero errors coming from the top.

When operating the top, sometimes it fails operation. When I manually start to adjust where the top / storage cover is at, and resume operation, sometimes I can get it to complete the cycle.

When the OBD2 was hooked up while at the Nissan dealership, with the car parked, in about 65 degree temperature, the sensor on the driver side reads "ON or OFF" -- basically saying "hey i'm open, hey i'm closed"... This particular sensor was the only one that continued to change status. In a 60 second period, the sensor reporting was showing ON / OFF changing intermittently.

I hope this better explains the problem... I have been having the issue with the storage lid and the convertible top slightly smacking one another for the last 18 months.


The major issue here is this hall sensor as part of the cylinder is not "replaceable"... There are no clips on the harness, meaning that it's all part of one big system. The only way for me to really verify whether it's the sensor would be to clip, replace (from maybe a wrecked ZR) and solder. Any suggestions would be great to test... I've tapped into the wiring harness and tested with a volt meter as these hall sensors push out a 5v signal when the magnetic field changes... It didn't appear that the driver side was getting that 5v even when doing manual operation on occasion.

dsmarks2002

qubickz

I have and have had the same issue with the cover and the top making contact during operation. The dealer had an Nissan engineer look at while it was still under warranty. One tech told me it was just the elastic cables on both sides needed to be replaced, and they were responsible for moving the bottom portion of the top out of the covers way. They claimed to have ordered them for me, but never materialized. I've simply resigned by self to opening the top from outside the car and manually assisting it so they don't smack each other and eventually wear out the plastic protection on the cover.

Good luck, sounds like your working through it.

dsmarks2002

jkatt

i now have the issue, the roof will open just slightly, the top part opens maybe about 1//4 way open and it just stops, pushing the button will not reverse and try to close back up or open it the rest of the way, no sounds from the motors either, ugh. 45,000 miles, i think its still under warranty.

OldGuyFla

Are you getting any error indications on the dash? If it is still under warranty, take it in.

If you are maybe wanting to close it manually go to this link http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/370Z/Coupe/2010/RF.pdf and the procedure starts on RF-24.

Good luck

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jkatt

opens part of the way maybe 12" back then just stops the back cover moves up also, nissan today told me its not under warranty, has 46,000 miles and the warranty was 3yr/36,000. sucks. i got it to close using the manual method and the hex tool and got it locked into place but of course the buzzer stays on the whole time you're driving still.

OldGuyFla

You made some progress, at least you can drive it now. mrthomr had the same problem, check out top is broken below. It is probably electrical & there are just so many possibilities I wouldn't know where to start. There have been a couple of members that have had wiring harness problems due to a breakage from opening & closing all the time. Sorry I can't help you.
Top is broken

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