It is deception, I think..
 

Why is it that if you go to the Nissan site and price a 2015 Base coupe, the price is $29990 yet the dealer will never sell it to you at that price, adding a lot of charges from door edges to destination or delivery scharges and on and on.

Samething with Autotrader. Dealers list their 2014 at, say $29850 but when you actually go and ask the out of door price, it is significantly higher and includes all sorts of crappy add-ons?

order one with no addons, but the destination charge, doc, tax you have to pay on any new car.

Yeah the other stuff like rust and clear bras and 'what if you get hit by a racoon while it is an eclipse' is all not required.

Whenever you see a price it should include that the price exclusions are at least: tax, title, license, destination.

:iagree:

find the invoice price and add like 150 so they can make some margin.
that's your offer.

also depending on where you are add other taxes on top of your regular sales taxes

that said, i got the illuminated door sills, wheel locks, splash guards, and the useless cargo carpet thingie for free since i paid invoice on my Z 5yrs ago.

No this is deception. WTF is this anyways??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...4-15-34-08.png

Must be a nitro shortage? :icon18:

As kenchan says, you're not going to get around paying destination, doc, & tax.
But there does seem to be a growing lost art to negotiating the final price in buying a car. Window sticker is retail price while the invoice price the dealer paid is much lower, 5~10% lower, maybe more. Then there is the dealers "kick-back" money he gets from the factory just to keep as much inventory on his lot and not on theirs. Sometimes factories offer rebates but Nissan rarely offers such or cheap financing on the Z models. Supply and demand is everything and "end of the year" discounts are possible when the new year models come out.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I've bought many new cars in my time and I've never paid close to retail, even my "out the door" prices were well below sticker. I've made sincere offers only to be giggled at and told no way, walked out, and got home with the phone ringing to come back. I've walked out of two dealerships and had the same offer accepted by a third. I will admit that the more popular the car the tougher it is to get a good deal but if you search this forum you'll read about people getting great deals anyway. I never make the first offer and if you have to trade something in, the internet will let you arm yourself with its trade in value. If I negotiate for and hour and only save $500, I figure I got paid well for my time. Oh, when a dealer adds his extras to the sticker, go somewhere else.

People are idiots.

Nitro filled tired is the future in performance.

That is simply something where you tell the sales person that is off the table immediately or you won't be wasting any more of his time.

Aye, too true. I didnt pay for that shite. Remember I bought the car used with 1500 miles on it in April.

I looked into the key replacement, i think it means if I lose my keys up to five times they replace it for free. As for the roadside dont most new cars or cars under factory warranty have the manufacturers roadside? Mmm Most do except Nissan LOL.

Nitro HAHA bullshite too. I remember when I negotiated my 2013 Mazdaspeed 3 ( was brand new ) it came with a sticker with all that fancy added stuff on it, I didnt pay a penny for them as I had already negotiated the price at the dealers and they had to ship the car from another main dealer.

Well Said Grandpa Moses.........................


:iagree:

True-Car.com... Worked for me ;)

:shakes head: looks like grandpa one-upped me. :shakes head:

Manufacturers quote the lowest MSRP price they can legitimately claim to be the value of a new car.

That never includes tax, tags, destination fees, yadda yadda.

Arm thyself with the holy Black Book when battling these Princes of Lies. The Back Book is critical for buying a used car and useful for arguing prices on cars approaching the end of their MY or to make the case for a price around invoice on the magnitude of imminent depreciation for your new car based on past MY's (a weaker, more nuanced argument to craft, but a worthwhile point to make if they get defensive over the MSRP). Also, of course, find out the invoice price, which is usually several grand less than MSRP. More profit for them for doing very, very little work.

Also keep in mind: Whatever price is agreed to there is NO WAY they are not turning a profit for basically doing nothing but directing you to a car in a showroom, often without even any significant knowledge of the car you are considering. Find out the dealer holdback (on Nissans, I believe it is 3% -- that is pure profit they have already pocketed for moving the car from a trailer to the lot).

The guy who fixed your sandwich, carried out your garbage, and delivered your mail worked a lot harder and receives far lesser compensation for doing these necessary tasks.

Fight for the lowest price you can without fear, guilt, or sympathy. Expect the same vigor from the salesperson and come prepared.

Secure financing before you get there and never reveal how much you were approved for.

Review the very helpful Z buyer's thread for more details.

how is that deception? they are not deceiving you in any way. The price is CLEARLY stated on the sticker

I read the title as "It is Decepticon, I think" ... I was disappointed..

Fark ............. the innocence of youth .... those that fail to listen to the lesssons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes ...

Listen to your elders (thank you GranPaMoses and Jordo - all great advice !!!).

Also, a useful tip is to always purchase a new car on the last one ot two sales days of the month. All manufacturers and distributors worldwide work off rebates for shifting product per month and management will often OK a price at (or very rarely - below) dealer cost on the final sales day of a month because it may given them an extra kicker on their dealer rebate and/or a break on inventory financing costs for the new month.

I don't have a problem with a dealer loading the displayed price with cr4p because the only thing I focus on is the changeover or actual money out of my pocket ...

Purchasing a car is a negotiation so you need to negotiate !!!! Kicking the toys out of the pram becuase it is not handed to you on a platter is not negotiation

So since the knowledge is strong is this thread, I will ask a question.

How do you find out invoice on your specific car? What are the best days of the year to buy a car? Best says of the month? Can you negotiate on prices when ordering a car? If you can negotiate a price on ordering a car, would it be in my best interest to locate a car of my interest and bargain down from there or just order the car I want. Is the knowledge of what fellow forum members well documented in a thread here worth taking to a dealer?

I am just asking as I want a 370z Sport soon and I've seen their stickers go as high as 35 and 36. I've read members get them out the door at 29-31 and I just would like to know how.

1. Getting invoice can be tricky (Edmunds and/or sites for the car who have already deduced it -- like here -- are an okay source). Someone here may have better ideas...

That in mind, even if you can find it unofficially, the dealership may dismiss the validity -- they won't dismiss the Black Book. I have watched salespersons visibly pale and sweat when they see it.

The Black Book lists official auction values that holds up in bankruptcy court and will list both MSRP and Retail. Get it.

2. Best times: End of MY (especially if a "refresh" is due) as they need to clear inventory. Holidays there are usually sales events (but find out what incentives the dealers are given -- often listed on sites like Edmunds) the "sale" to the consumer may be all bait and switch tactics. Generally if you are buying a car "out of season" (e.g., a sports car in the winter) you have more negotiation power. Taking note of how long a car has sat is good too -- its all about moving inventory for a dealership.

3. Negotiation power. If you know the actual value (or value it is likely to approach based on past MY's) from an authoritative source like the Black Book, there isn't much they can do except say no.

That said, be prepared to storm out. They will almost definitely call you back. If they don't, **** 'em. Let them sit on the car another 6 months as it slowly depreciates. Actually, go ahead and tell them that directly and firmly if you know the car has already been sitting there a while :icon17:

4. Unfortunately, the only way to ensure you get EXACTLY the car you want is to walk in with a bag of money and not bother haggling. That's great if you are a Jay Leno, and have a cadre of personal shoppers, and not so great otherwise.

Even then, you will always be limited to what a given dealer can get you on short notice (i.e., trading car for car with another dealer) or has in stock. Be flexible enough in what you want to consider whether you are really getting your money's worth (a car is always a terrible, terrible investment, as almost without exception, they steadily lose value every second after they leave the factory).

By way of example, if you want a red car but can get a great deal on a silver one, how much is that color worth to you? You might wait and keep looking. You might decide silver is more to your taste, etc.

But one thing is for sure: You will not close a deal where they lose money. It won't happen. Oh, they'll grumble over how the deal is for less than they wanted, but let's be clear: Whether or not the sales team is "high-fiving" each other after you sign the paper, you can be sure they will not lose money on their deal.

So, arm yourself with as much knowledge (and grit) as possible, and be prepared to play the hardest of hardball.

On the bright side, you might not get the first car you set your eyes on, and, if so, take heart that another one you like will surely come along. Meaning, you have nothing to lose for walking out.

For them, it's their livelihood. They have to woo you, not the other way around.

5. Bring a good friend/significant other/family member who has his or her head on straight. Someone you can trust to drag you away from a bad deal if you falter.

6. Note all the other "dealer fees" and nonsense. That is PURE PROFIT on top of the rest of the PURE PROFIT they made for doing very, very, little. Be mindful of how much the price will shift as you approach "out the door" price. Tax, tags, and title costs are firm, but random dealer fees and the actual price of the car are NOT. Don't agree to a seemingly good deal where they get back the profit they "lost" via ******** fees tacked on. As you approach the final offer -- make sure you are given a clear OTD price with TTT.

I bought a car once and after negotiating a great deal (right at auction value via the Black Book) they suddenly added in another $600 in dealer fees as they drew up the bill of sale. I laughed and asked what they did for that $600? Make photocopies? Bring the car from the back of the lot to the front? They admitted it was pure profit and non-negotiable, so I said, great -- knock another $600 off the price of the car then. And after some grimacing, they did. If they didn't, I'd have walked out. Get the idea.

Happy shopping :tup:

Great post Jordo thanks! Lots of valuable info here. Car dealers probably want your money more than they want to keep their car, so in a way the buyer has the advantage, within reason of course. With the last new car I bought, I told the dealer my price and made sure they understood that the number was "all in, out the door, including all fees". When we got to the paperwork part, I saw that they had actually lowered the price we agreed to for the car by the amount of the "processing fee", about $400, and then added to fee back in to come to the final price we had agreed to. They really loved their processing fee, I guess.

Jordo--I thought you had to be a dealer to get a subscription to Black Book-
are they available somewhere to the general public? Like you said, you can't be any better prepared than to have the same info the dealer has.

Informative thread!

Made me smile. :tup:

I have a friend of a friend of a friend etc. :D

But, even without shadowy connections, you can get access to the Black Book

Black Book Auto | Home

It aint cheap -- wait until you are ready to buy a car, have financing set etc. This is only something you need when you are ready and able to buy.

In a pinch, NADA Yellow Book is a good alternative. KBB is really only useful if you are selling a car, trading in (to prepare for the screwing to commence...), or looking to buy from a private seller. It is not especially helpful for buying from a dealer (for starters, it presumes YOUR car is Average to Good and THEIR car is always Excellent and flawless...).

Edmunds and a few other online trackers can give you a ballpark on what the given car is going for in your area, but that only helps you to get screwed no better or worse than other folks (assuming their reports are accurate...)

The other stuff is strategy (e.g., don't be afraid to walk the **** out) -- and yes you have 100% of the leverage, because the worst they can do is not sell you the car. It's not a rare artistic masterpiece, its just another machine working its way to entropy.

All the Black Book does is give you a clearer picture of the absolute lowest you can even haggle for. It gives you a legitimate lower bound to start with and it defuses their ability to point gleefully at the MSRP, like that number means anything.

Of course, no matter what you pay, you are screwed, because essentially all cars are money pits and lose value steadily from the time it rolls off the lot. Strategy, patience, Tony Montoya fortitude, and some knowledge mitigate the depth of the initial screwing.

Note: None of this will work as well if you are in a situation where you need a car ASAP... then you have less leverage, obviously -- just don't telegraph that to the seller...

I use the dealers black book , I merely ask them to bring it out to me. :roflpuke2:

I never thought of that :icon17:

Seriously, tho', the NADA Yellow Book is a good alternative and the prices are generally closer to Black Book prices than the ones listed for KBB.

Thanks for all the help guys, it is truly helpful. I am looking around at cars and prices. Planning on pulling a trigger here soo

Excellent information guys. One more thing I might add is to not be afraid to travel a little. My hometown is medium sized but only has one dealership for each make of car. Setting a maximum radius you are willing to travel in Auto Trader or Cars.com gives you more to choose from. Remember if you can find what you want on a lot, you're going to be able to negotiate better than having a dealer order it.

:shakes head: grandpamoses now one-upping himself. :shakes head:

:iagree:

Well said Sir. I haven't bought a car in my home state since 1999, and even then the dealer had to go out of state to get it. Since then I've been going out of state to buy cars.

I went to PA to get an SUV a few years ago; a dealer in my state had almost the exact same thing for $4000 more than the PA car, so I spent 3 days and a few hundred dollars to save the difference. Well worth it, and I'll buy my Z the same way.

I've never left a car lot feeling like I got a good deal. I also shower as soon as I get home.
I've overheard the salesmen bragging about what they sold a car for....I've walked away about 100 times and had them call me up later and make me a lower offer in price, but all the BS got me right back to where we were before.....what a racket.
When I got my garage queen Z, there was another couple waiting to buy it....talk about pressure! I did for some strange reason get it for a lot less than KBB, and believe me I checked! I still don't know what happened.....I saw it and had to have it, all my good sense went right out the window, but I still got a good deal even though I drooled all over the car the entire time.....like a kid with the first girl he kissed....

Just thought some of you would appreciate this. Just had a dealer email me they can get me into a 370z with sports package for a price of 41k! A base sport for 41k!

He must be sniffing dog food.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I agree!

AFTER the dog has processed it.

Provided you aren't in a hat-in-hand, I need a car today situation (and I have been there most of my life...), the number one thing to remember is: If you walk out and "lose" the car, you will find another.

The number two thing to remember is that whatever price you arrive at, they made money, so do not feel any guilt to offer a "fair price". Trust me, no salesman will.

Well, "fair" for them, but maybe not so "fair" for you -- "fair" is a relative state. But you owe them nothing and they owe you nothing, and whatever you pay, the car is worth less the instant you drive away...

Fight for the price you can live with or walk out. That can be surprisingly stressful, but bear in mind YOU are the person with the power here. Put the stress on them to sell, not on yourself to buy.

If it's a sucker deal, let them hook another sucker.

And yes, traveling a good bit (I'd say be willing to drive up to at least 100 miles), comparing and contrasting between dealerships, etc are all tactics at your disposal.