Z35 motor theory

Volk Z · 10-02-2014, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magic Bus

While the thought of 2 different engines for the Z sounds interesting, I highly doubt this would ever occur. Reasons being, 2 seat sport cars is a niche, not a high volume product. And add to the fact that Nissan is currently selling less than 700 Z's a month, this would be too risky and just not make any business sense. However if Nissan was selling over 10,000 a month there's a possibility of this.

I like Unknown's idea of what a Z shoud be. TT, 420 hp, lighter with great feedback to the driver. The best selling 2 door sportscar out there is the Corvette and if Nissan wants to be competitive in this market, they have to come out with a car that's very close to the C7 in performance. Then tuners can do just a little bit of magic to the TT to make it outrun a standard C7. This should establish street cred for the Z which Nissan is seeking.

Yes the price will go up for this new Z. However, I believe if Nissan can build this car with the base model starting at $37k and the Nismo topping out at $49k, they'll get their fare share of sales in this niche market. I know I'd buy one and scratch all the others off my list for a future car.

I agree I think if they put a little more of a package together and the prices went up they would sell a lot more.

I could see sales going up even if base price was 38k. If the car offered a v6tt lightweight and looked great.
Look at all the guys who drop 10k out of pocket to TT there 370z or 350z. I would rather keep the money in my savings and finance a car that already has this on it.

If they did do two engines. Then have a 330hp NA v6 and a 420hp v6tt like the 90s with the supras and 300zx offering both.

For people who can't afford the 40k us turbo z they could get the base v6 for 32k. Seems simple to me.

Nissan need to stop dipping their toes in the water with the Z and just dive in... look at the new Toyota Supra aka ft1 to be released. Most likely will be a 6 cylinder turbo with a carbon chassis supplied by bmw with looks to kill.

If the toyota supra aka ft1 is priced in the 50k mark and nissan expects to sell Nismo models close to 50k with a not so great engine choice then they will lose for sure.

ZBro16 · 10-02-2014, 09:16 AM

Fun thread.

Firstly - regarding the post about Nissan progression and not Nissan fanboy appeasement: in the case of the Z is exceptionally important that Nissan at least somewhat caters to the fanboys. If it were an Altima we were talking about, then I would agree with progression. The vast majority of people buying Z cars are the Nissan fanboys. The general sports car buyer isn't buying Zs, he's looking at American V8s. The Mustang generally accounts for half the sports car sales in America. Why is this? Bang for the buck - the buyer gets a car that has a lot of power, sporty looks, and some day-to-day utility.

If the Z is to remain a two seater enthusiast's vehicle, Nissan needs to tread carefully for a number of reasons.

1) Pricing for package:

If Nissan decides to make a $50k Z, it'd better have 500 horsepower because of its level of competition. In that range, you're in Corvette territory. (the GT-R is a separate argument that I'll get to later) You're creeping on M3, RCF, CTS-V, Camaro ZL1/Z28, Mustang GT500 pricing. HEAVY HITTERS. Nissan can go one of two directions - they can make a 500 horsepower Z and go play with the next level of competition, or they can exercise the more likely option - bang for the buck. The Z has always been the bang for the buck corvette and the GT-R has always been the bang for the buck porsche. The difference now is the level of competition is the toughest it has ever been for either car.

2) Which segment do we play in?

To piggy back off of point one, no matter what Nissan does, the pricing is going to determine the segment it gets thrown into in the eyes of the general public and the media. Only the enthusiasts clamor "yeah my sports car costs $30k but it can whip your $80k porsche". However, the $30k-$40k range is becoming thinner. While it's highly unlikely the Z will go play in Miata/BRZ land, they very well could. However, the Z has never been about that since its inception. The sweet spot for this car will be the $30k-$40k range, as $30k is the cap for the Miata/BRZs of the world, while $40k is when you start getting into the more nicely equipped Mustang GTs of the world. In that range, Nissan can justify the extra price in the Z over a Miata because of the performance difference and justify the benefit in a Z over a Mustang GT because of the price difference as long as they do one thing - get point #1 right. The Z could possibly live in a segment all on its own (as it almost does currently). The only two seater in the US market below a Z is a Miata, and the next one up from it is a Vette. (I know things like the Alfa 4C and others are coming, which is why its essential that Nissan gets the pricing/segment stuff right.)

Now - these two things lead me to this: likely engine configuration.

If they get something really expensive for the platform, it will drive the cost of the car up, and the Z will die a la 300ZX TT. If they repeat the 3.7 in its current form, no one will be interested if the car shows up weighing 3300lbs.

What is likely for Nissan is they will either dump a ton of money into a new platform and reuse something from someone that's cheap or they will use an engine from somewhere else that gives them some versatility and will only modify the current platform. If they find a way to make a 2500lb Z with the current VQ in it, I feel that's a possible recipe for success.

I will bring the Q50 Eau Rouge into the equation - I felt that using the exact engine from the GT-R (hand built and all) was great for a proof of concept, but would result in an abysmal failure in production as it would result in a $100k+ car. However, the solution could be that they would begin mass producing a version of the VR38DETT that would result in less expensive production costs, or they could simply rework a bit of the VQ37VHR, twin turbo it, and have a more feasible answer. This way, you have a mass produced engine with cheaper production costs to make the Q50 Eau Rouge a true contender. However, the same argument could be made for the VR38DETT (the people's version). If you find a way to mass produce that motor, you could have a solution. An NA version for the Z, Q50, upcoming Q60 coupe and the other infinitis that use the 3.7, and a turbo version for the Eau Rouge.

On the other hand, the VQ37VHR with a revision that includes perhaps Direct Injection and maybe a KERS system could do the trick with a bit of weight reduction.

Benz motors won't do it. From a cost standpoint, I don't see the benefit if you have the ship the motors all over the world to build a car. If the Z has a German heart, it will alienate most of its fanbase. This will destroy the Z unless they build something that could cannibalize Mustang sales to make up for the loss of the Z fanboys (HIGHLY unlikely). A four-cyl motor won't do it either unless it's a game changer from Nissan (350hp/300tq or something like it). Even Mazda knows that, while you can make a lighter platform, the American market won't respond well to a decrease in horsepower. You're better off keeping the numbers the same or better, because the meathead drivers of the American car market look straight at the horsepower figure. The educated enthusiasts and drivers will look at power combined with suspension layout, power-to-weight ratio, and drivetrain efficiency to ascertain the capabilities of a car, but sadly those people make up a very small number of sales. Even if they took 1000lbs off the car's weight, a power figure below 300hp in this car will destroy its image around its competition, and the Z35 could be the last Z car we ever see.

Eclipz · 10-02-2014, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZBro16

( Click to show/hide )

Fun thread.

Firstly - regarding the post about Nissan progression and not Nissan fanboy appeasement: in the case of the Z is exceptionally important that Nissan at least somewhat caters to the fanboys. If it were an Altima we were talking about, then I would agree with progression. The vast majority of people buying Z cars are the Nissan fanboys. The general sports car buyer isn't buying Zs, he's looking at American V8s. The Mustang generally accounts for half the sports car sales in America. Why is this? Bang for the buck - the buyer gets a car that has a lot of power, sporty looks, and some day-to-day utility.

If the Z is to remain a two seater enthusiast's vehicle, Nissan needs to tread carefully for a number of reasons.

1) Pricing for package:

If Nissan decides to make a $50k Z, it'd better have 500 horsepower because of its level of competition. In that range, you're in Corvette territory. (the GT-R is a separate argument that I'll get to later) You're creeping on M3, RCF, CTS-V, Camaro ZL1/Z28, Mustang GT500 pricing. HEAVY HITTERS. Nissan can go one of two directions - they can make a 500 horsepower Z and go play with the next level of competition, or they can exercise the more likely option - bang for the buck. The Z has always been the bang for the buck corvette and the GT-R has always been the bang for the buck porsche. The difference now is the level of competition is the toughest it has ever been for either car.

2) Which segment do we play in?

To piggy back off of point one, no matter what Nissan does, the pricing is going to determine the segment it gets thrown into in the eyes of the general public and the media. Only the enthusiasts clamor "yeah my sports car costs $30k but it can whip your $80k porsche". However, the $30k-$40k range is becoming thinner. While it's highly unlikely the Z will go play in Miata/BRZ land, they very well could. However, the Z has never been about that since its inception. The sweet spot for this car will be the $30k-$40k range, as $30k is the cap for the Miata/BRZs of the world, while $40k is when you start getting into the more nicely equipped Mustang GTs of the world. In that range, Nissan can justify the extra price in the Z over a Miata because of the performance difference and justify the benefit in a Z over a Mustang GT because of the price difference as long as they do one thing - get point #1 right. The Z could possibly live in a segment all on its own (as it almost does currently). The only two seater in the US market below a Z is a Miata, and the next one up from it is a Vette. (I know things like the Alfa 4C and others are coming, which is why its essential that Nissan gets the pricing/segment stuff right.)

Now - these two things lead me to this: likely engine configuration.

If they get something really expensive for the platform, it will drive the cost of the car up, and the Z will die a la 300ZX TT. If they repeat the 3.7 in its current form, no one will be interested if the car shows up weighing 3300lbs.

What is likely for Nissan is they will either dump a ton of money into a new platform and reuse something from someone that's cheap or they will use an engine from somewhere else that gives them some versatility and will only modify the current platform. If they find a way to make a 2500lb Z with the current VQ in it, I feel that's a possible recipe for success.

I will bring the Q50 Eau Rouge into the equation - I felt that using the exact engine from the GT-R (hand built and all) was great for a proof of concept, but would result in an abysmal failure in production as it would result in a $100k+ car. However, the solution could be that they would begin mass producing a version of the VR38DETT that would result in less expensive production costs, or they could simply rework a bit of the VQ37VHR, twin turbo it, and have a more feasible answer. This way, you have a mass produced engine with cheaper production costs to make the Q50 Eau Rouge a true contender. However, the same argument could be made for the VR38DETT (the people's version). If you find a way to mass produce that motor, you could have a solution. An NA version for the Z, Q50, upcoming Q60 coupe and the other infinitis that use the 3.7, and a turbo version for the Eau Rouge.

On the other hand, the VQ37VHR with a revision that includes perhaps Direct Injection and maybe a KERS system could do the trick with a bit of weight reduction.

Benz motors won't do it. From a cost standpoint, I don't see the benefit if you have the ship the motors all over the world to build a car. If the Z has a German heart, it will alienate most of its fanbase. This will destroy the Z unless they build something that could cannibalize Mustang sales to make up for the loss of the Z fanboys (HIGHLY unlikely). A four-cyl motor won't do it either unless it's a game changer from Nissan (350hp/300tq or something like it). Even Mazda knows that, while you can make a lighter platform, the American market won't respond well to a decrease in horsepower. You're better off keeping the numbers the same or better, because the meathead drivers of the American car market look straight at the horsepower figure. The educated enthusiasts and drivers will look at power combined with suspension layout, power-to-weight ratio, and drivetrain efficiency to ascertain the capabilities of a car, but sadly those people make up a very small number of sales. Even if they took 1000lbs off the car's weight, a power figure below 300hp in this car will destroy its image around its competition, and the Z35 could be the last Z car we ever see.

BRAVO, bravissimo! this should be sent to Nissan executives immediately.

DroneBot 3.7L · 10-02-2014, 10:13 AM

But I don't understand the purpose of a hopped up sport sedan (aka Grocery Getters) with TT package or awesome V8 engine. Nissan needs to send the older technology downstream, by putting the VR38 engine in the Z car and add a V8 in the GTR.

Volk Z · 10-02-2014, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DroneBot 3.7L

But I don't understand the purpose of a hopped up sport sedan (aka Grocery Getters) with TT package or awesome V8 engine. Nissan needs to send the older technology downstream, by putting the VR38 engine in the Z car and add a V8 in the GTR.

Theres no reason your 350z should have lost to an sc430. The sc weighs like a 1000 pounds more then a 350z. I had a 350z and my father owned an sc430. I have driven both and the sc is a fat pig compared to a 350z. A V8 doesnt mean better performance. Actually it could be quite the opposite in certain parameters. The GTR used a v6tt for a reason. Putting a V8 in the GTR would alter a lot of his current performance.

I read about some 50 pound 3 cylinder engine that pumps put like 450hp... if no one told you what was under the hood you would never suspect a motor thats half the size of the current Zs motor. Not saying use a 3 cylinder race engine but a smaller engine with high tuning potential is what the Z needs or go big or go home with a v6tt and make a lot of guys happy.

Personally if they put a 4 cylinder turbo motor in a 2700 pound Z worh 330hp it would be an amazingly fun car to drive with a power to weight ratio that would exceed any car in its class.

DroneBot 3.7L · 10-02-2014, 10:57 AM

The V8 platform offers so much more torque.

Volk Z · 10-02-2014, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DroneBot 3.7L

I didn't lose out to him, but I only had less than a car length between us (could put a big enough gap in front of him). The V8 platform offers so much more torque.

Torque while you were moving doing a pull on the highway? The specs on the car are not good. Its nearly a second slower 0 to 60 time close to 1000 pounds heavier and almost identical hp numbers. The torque is 325 ft lbs vs the 350z 290 ft lbs. Every 100 pounds is equivalent to 7 to 10hp and .1 on a quarter mile.

Also this statement has too many variables tp factor in on you barely inching away. Like what gear were you in. What gear was he in. Do you have subs and heavy chrome wheels. Was there a sumo wrestler in your passenger seat weighing you down.

njobe89 · 10-02-2014, 12:36 PM

( Click to show/hide )

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZBro16

Fun thread.

Firstly - regarding the post about Nissan progression and not Nissan fanboy appeasement: in the case of the Z is exceptionally important that Nissan at least somewhat caters to the fanboys. If it were an Altima we were talking about, then I would agree with progression. The vast majority of people buying Z cars are the Nissan fanboys. The general sports car buyer isn't buying Zs, he's looking at American V8s. The Mustang generally accounts for half the sports car sales in America. Why is this? Bang for the buck - the buyer gets a car that has a lot of power, sporty looks, and some day-to-day utility.

If the Z is to remain a two seater enthusiast's vehicle, Nissan needs to tread carefully for a number of reasons.

1) Pricing for package:

If Nissan decides to make a $50k Z, it'd better have 500 horsepower because of its level of competition. In that range, you're in Corvette territory. (the GT-R is a separate argument that I'll get to later) You're creeping on M3, RCF, CTS-V, Camaro ZL1/Z28, Mustang GT500 pricing. HEAVY HITTERS. Nissan can go one of two directions - they can make a 500 horsepower Z and go play with the next level of competition, or they can exercise the more likely option - bang for the buck. The Z has always been the bang for the buck corvette and the GT-R has always been the bang for the buck porsche. The difference now is the level of competition is the toughest it has ever been for either car.

2) Which segment do we play in?

To piggy back off of point one, no matter what Nissan does, the pricing is going to determine the segment it gets thrown into in the eyes of the general public and the media. Only the enthusiasts clamor "yeah my sports car costs $30k but it can whip your $80k porsche". However, the $30k-$40k range is becoming thinner. While it's highly unlikely the Z will go play in Miata/BRZ land, they very well could. However, the Z has never been about that since its inception. The sweet spot for this car will be the $30k-$40k range, as $30k is the cap for the Miata/BRZs of the world, while $40k is when you start getting into the more nicely equipped Mustang GTs of the world. In that range, Nissan can justify the extra price in the Z over a Miata because of the performance difference and justify the benefit in a Z over a Mustang GT because of the price difference as long as they do one thing - get point #1 right. The Z could possibly live in a segment all on its own (as it almost does currently). The only two seater in the US market below a Z is a Miata, and the next one up from it is a Vette. (I know things like the Alfa 4C and others are coming, which is why its essential that Nissan gets the pricing/segment stuff right.)

Now - these two things lead me to this: likely engine configuration.

If they get something really expensive for the platform, it will drive the cost of the car up, and the Z will die a la 300ZX TT. If they repeat the 3.7 in its current form, no one will be interested if the car shows up weighing 3300lbs.

What is likely for Nissan is they will either dump a ton of money into a new platform and reuse something from someone that's cheap or they will use an engine from somewhere else that gives them some versatility and will only modify the current platform. If they find a way to make a 2500lb Z with the current VQ in it, I feel that's a possible recipe for success.

I will bring the Q50 Eau Rouge into the equation - I felt that using the exact engine from the GT-R (hand built and all) was great for a proof of concept, but would result in an abysmal failure in production as it would result in a $100k+ car. However, the solution could be that they would begin mass producing a version of the VR38DETT that would result in less expensive production costs, or they could simply rework a bit of the VQ37VHR, twin turbo it, and have a more feasible answer. This way, you have a mass produced engine with cheaper production costs to make the Q50 Eau Rouge a true contender. However, the same argument could be made for the VR38DETT (the people's version). If you find a way to mass produce that motor, you could have a solution. An NA version for the Z, Q50, upcoming Q60 coupe and the other infinitis that use the 3.7, and a turbo version for the Eau Rouge.

On the other hand, the VQ37VHR with a revision that includes perhaps Direct Injection and maybe a KERS system could do the trick with a bit of weight reduction.

Benz motors won't do it. From a cost standpoint, I don't see the benefit if you have the ship the motors all over the world to build a car. If the Z has a German heart, it will alienate most of its fanbase. This will destroy the Z unless they build something that could cannibalize Mustang sales to make up for the loss of the Z fanboys (HIGHLY unlikely). A four-cyl motor won't do it either unless it's a game changer from Nissan (350hp/300tq or something like it). Even Mazda knows that, while you can make a lighter platform, the American market won't respond well to a decrease in horsepower. You're better off keeping the numbers the same or better, because the meathead drivers of the American car market look straight at the horsepower figure. The educated enthusiasts and drivers will look at power combined with suspension layout, power-to-weight ratio, and drivetrain efficiency to ascertain the capabilities of a car, but sadly those people make up a very small number of sales. Even if they took 1000lbs off the car's weight, a power figure below 300hp in this car will destroy its image around its competition, and the Z35 could be the last Z car we ever see.

i tried liking the hell out of this thing but it only allowed me one like

10-02-2014, 09:16 AM	#2 (permalink)
ZBro16 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 370 Drives: A Z. Rep Power: 14	Fun thread. Firstly - regarding the post about Nissan progression and not Nissan fanboy appeasement: in the case of the Z is exceptionally important that Nissan at least somewhat caters to the fanboys. If it were an Altima we were talking about, then I would agree with progression. The vast majority of people buying Z cars are the Nissan fanboys. The general sports car buyer isn't buying Zs, he's looking at American V8s. The Mustang generally accounts for half the sports car sales in America. Why is this? Bang for the buck - the buyer gets a car that has a lot of power, sporty looks, and some day-to-day utility. If the Z is to remain a two seater enthusiast's vehicle, Nissan needs to tread carefully for a number of reasons. 1) Pricing for package: If Nissan decides to make a $50k Z, it'd better have 500 horsepower because of its level of competition. In that range, you're in Corvette territory. (the GT-R is a separate argument that I'll get to later) You're creeping on M3, RCF, CTS-V, Camaro ZL1/Z28, Mustang GT500 pricing. HEAVY HITTERS. Nissan can go one of two directions - they can make a 500 horsepower Z and go play with the next level of competition, or they can exercise the more likely option - bang for the buck. The Z has always been the bang for the buck corvette and the GT-R has always been the bang for the buck porsche. The difference now is the level of competition is the toughest it has ever been for either car. 2) Which segment do we play in? To piggy back off of point one, no matter what Nissan does, the pricing is going to determine the segment it gets thrown into in the eyes of the general public and the media. Only the enthusiasts clamor "yeah my sports car costs $30k but it can whip your $80k porsche". However, the $30k-$40k range is becoming thinner. While it's highly unlikely the Z will go play in Miata/BRZ land, they very well could. However, the Z has never been about that since its inception. The sweet spot for this car will be the $30k-$40k range, as $30k is the cap for the Miata/BRZs of the world, while $40k is when you start getting into the more nicely equipped Mustang GTs of the world. In that range, Nissan can justify the extra price in the Z over a Miata because of the performance difference and justify the benefit in a Z over a Mustang GT because of the price difference as long as they do one thing - get point #1 right. The Z could possibly live in a segment all on its own (as it almost does currently). The only two seater in the US market below a Z is a Miata, and the next one up from it is a Vette. (I know things like the Alfa 4C and others are coming, which is why its essential that Nissan gets the pricing/segment stuff right.) Now - these two things lead me to this: likely engine configuration. If they get something really expensive for the platform, it will drive the cost of the car up, and the Z will die a la 300ZX TT. If they repeat the 3.7 in its current form, no one will be interested if the car shows up weighing 3300lbs. What is likely for Nissan is they will either dump a ton of money into a new platform and reuse something from someone that's cheap or they will use an engine from somewhere else that gives them some versatility and will only modify the current platform. If they find a way to make a 2500lb Z with the current VQ in it, I feel that's a possible recipe for success. I will bring the Q50 Eau Rouge into the equation - I felt that using the exact engine from the GT-R (hand built and all) was great for a proof of concept, but would result in an abysmal failure in production as it would result in a $100k+ car. However, the solution could be that they would begin mass producing a version of the VR38DETT that would result in less expensive production costs, or they could simply rework a bit of the VQ37VHR, twin turbo it, and have a more feasible answer. This way, you have a mass produced engine with cheaper production costs to make the Q50 Eau Rouge a true contender. However, the same argument could be made for the VR38DETT (the people's version). If you find a way to mass produce that motor, you could have a solution. An NA version for the Z, Q50, upcoming Q60 coupe and the other infinitis that use the 3.7, and a turbo version for the Eau Rouge. On the other hand, the VQ37VHR with a revision that includes perhaps Direct Injection and maybe a KERS system could do the trick with a bit of weight reduction. Benz motors won't do it. From a cost standpoint, I don't see the benefit if you have the ship the motors all over the world to build a car. If the Z has a German heart, it will alienate most of its fanbase. This will destroy the Z unless they build something that could cannibalize Mustang sales to make up for the loss of the Z fanboys (HIGHLY unlikely). A four-cyl motor won't do it either unless it's a game changer from Nissan (350hp/300tq or something like it). Even Mazda knows that, while you can make a lighter platform, the American market won't respond well to a decrease in horsepower. You're better off keeping the numbers the same or better, because the meathead drivers of the American car market look straight at the horsepower figure. The educated enthusiasts and drivers will look at power combined with suspension layout, power-to-weight ratio, and drivetrain efficiency to ascertain the capabilities of a car, but sadly those people make up a very small number of sales. Even if they took 1000lbs off the car's weight, a power figure below 300hp in this car will destroy its image around its competition, and the Z35 could be the last Z car we ever see. Valentino, zeeder, Rusty and 6 others like this.

10-02-2014, 10:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
DroneBot 3.7L Base Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Sunshine State Posts: 25 Drives: 14 370z MB 7AT Rep Power: 11	But I don't understand the purpose of a hopped up sport sedan (aka Grocery Getters) with TT package or awesome V8 engine. Nissan needs to send the older technology downstream, by putting the VR38 engine in the Z car and add a V8 in the GTR. Last edited by DroneBot 3.7L; 10-03-2014 at 10:46 AM.

10-02-2014, 10:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
DroneBot 3.7L Base Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Sunshine State Posts: 25 Drives: 14 370z MB 7AT Rep Power: 11	The V8 platform offers so much more torque. Last edited by DroneBot 3.7L; 10-03-2014 at 10:47 AM.

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