Discussion: Let's talk coolant

DEpointfive0 · 12-09-2013, 12:31 AM

Mods, if you'd prefer this was somewhere else, feel free to move it; thank you

Let's talk about the science of antifreeze/coolant (TO MY KNOWLEDGE):
Radiator fluid gets beaten to death 6 ways from Sunday, but I would like to see what others' input is on the topic.

The goal of the radiator is to keep fluid temps DOWN, the goal of the fluid is to draw heat away from the block and a side "goal" is to keep pressure UP; It is the reason for higher pressure radiator caps; the higher the pressure, the higher the temperature of the fluid has to get to boil; the goal of that is to keep liquid as LIQUID.
That being said:

Let's accept some basic facts
"Straight water is the best coolant."
As soon as the fluid boils, the rapid expansion of liquid to gas will immediately overcome the pressure of the coolant cap, and the car will overheat almost immediately because steam SUCKS at drawing heat away from something.
Also, even though it is mainly sold as "antifreeze" the real purpose of coolant for MOST the population is to RAISE boiling point, lubricate the water pump, and prevent corrosion even if you use tap water. (Of course not for those who live in places where it freezes over)

So, water boils at 100 deg C, 212 deg F (at sea level)
In a pressurized system, assume 15 PSI, the BP (boiling point) is 120C/248F
In a normal 50:50 solution at 15PSI the BP is 129C/265F
Ethylene glycol (standard coolant's main ingredient) STARTS with a BP of 197C/387F; MUCH higher than any combination of coolant and water (let's assume something like 170C/338 since it's not 100% pure)

So the dilemma is that coolant isn't THE best at drawing heat away from the block, and its regarded as too thick to run straight; AND even the smallest amount of water dramatically lowers the BP of the solution. So what do you run as coolant?

Side option:
Evans Waterless Coolant; BP is at 190C/375F, it's lifetime, and supposedly 100% safe

2xtreme1 · 12-09-2013, 01:02 AM

o,o what?
anyways..umm my honda was close to over-heating couple months ago.
The temp was nearly up to max, but I pulled over and let it go down a bit. On the freeway, however, the temp was not going up dramatically.
When I got home, my dad just said I had like low water or something, and he simply just added um drinking water for a bottle in the thing where the water and or coolant goes I think. Everything seems fine now..

Is this what you are reffering to? lol

DEpointfive0 · 12-09-2013, 01:51 AM

^Not at all, you were just running low on fluid, that's a different scenario

IDZRVIT · 12-09-2013, 08:22 AM

For starters, straight water in a cooling system, is not the best coolant for those who think this way.

The cooling system is designed to meet a certain specification. Let's say it's cruising at 70 mph, A/C on, ambient outside temp 120 F for 6 hours with a standard 50/50 coolant mix. Most cars will never need to endure those conditions. So, the standard 50/50 mix will get the job done. If you increase the coolant's BP to 375 F using waterless coolant, the question you need to ask is why do I need to do this when the standard 50/50 mix works just fine? And, if your running a coolant temp of 350F with a waterless coolant, your oem rad probably can't reject that amount of coolant heat. Engine seals may begin to fail, water pump may fail and maybe catastrphic failure of the engine because it's not designed to run at 350 F. Now how hot will your oil temp be? Sounds like pure racing stuff. Using this stuff to remedy an overheating engine is not the way to go. Over heating of the engine, i.e. coolant sytems is probably a problem with the radiator, water pump or partial blockage to the flow of coolant somewhere. Fix the problem and don't use a band aid fix. In summary, the waterless coolant has it's use like in racing, I assume imho.

Justice97 · 12-09-2013, 08:24 AM

I've always wondered how machining coolant would perform in a radiator. It adds lubricity and is used for removing heat during metal removal.
I wonder what the boiling point is of a 6% mix of machining coolant is.

I would not try it in my Z, but maybe the Taurus.

Masterbeatty · 12-09-2013, 08:33 AM

I Have no clue but i have a speculation. Per the OEM it only calls for regular coolant and not the waterless stuff. I would call evens up and talk to them about the chemical composition of their automotive product before trying it out, it wasnt on their website. You never know if the VQ engine is made of some metal that counter acts with it, might be good for a ford or chevy but not nissan. Also i dont know if it is allowed to be used for track use. NASA and SCCA didnt specify in the rule book.

SouthArk370Z · 12-09-2013, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice97

I've always wondered how machining coolant would perform in a radiator. It adds lubricity and is used for removing heat during metal removal.
I wonder what the boiling point is of a 6% mix of machining coolant is.

I would not try it in my Z, but maybe the Taurus.

I'd have to do a lot more research into how compatible machining coolants are with the various metals and plastics used in the engine before I'd dump it in the radiator. Plus, it sounds terribly expensive.

kenchan · 12-09-2013, 10:01 AM

i just use watever the Z came with. i mean hell... i paid for it, right?

DEpointfive0 · 12-09-2013, 10:02 AM

I guess people aren't understanding... I don't have a cooling problem, hell, I have an oversize radiator. This is just a discussion, I throw out the waterless product more as a question as to what you think of the product or the logic behind it

DEpointfive0 · 12-09-2013, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IDZRVIT

For starters, straight water in a cooling system, is not the best coolant for those who think this way.

The cooling system is designed to meet a certain specification. Let's say it's cruising at 70 mph, A/C on, ambient outside temp 120 F for 6 hours with a standard 50/50 coolant mix. Most cars will never need to endure those conditions. So, the standard 50/50 mix will get the job done. If you increase the coolant's BP to 375 F using waterless coolant, the question you need to ask is why do I need to do this when the standard 50/50 mix works just fine? And, if your running a coolant temp of 350F with a waterless coolant, your oem rad probably can't reject that amount of coolant heat. Engine seals may begin to fail, water pump may fail and maybe catastrphic failure of the engine because it's not designed to run at 350 F. Now how hot will your oil temp be? Sounds like pure racing stuff. Using this stuff to remedy an overheating engine is not the way to go. Over heating of the engine, i.e. coolant sytems is probably a problem with the radiator, water pump or partial blockage to the flow of coolant somewhere. Fix the problem and don't use a band aid fix. In summary, the waterless coolant has it's use like in racing, I assume imho.

Just as an FYI, race cars, use 100% water, MAYBE with additives, but not a 50:50 coolant solution or anything close to it

kenchan · 12-09-2013, 10:11 AM

DE- is your car a race car? are we really the ones not understanding?

SouthArk370Z · 12-09-2013, 10:14 AM

I'm not so sure that cooling is actually the main function of coolant any more. Sure, it's important, but corrosion control is just as, if not more, important. The cooling system on the Z seems to be marginal, so a coolant that cools better should be advantageous but I would have to be very sure that anything I used was compatible with the materials used in the engine and radiator. So far, my DD has been handling the S AR heat well (not great but good enough), so I don't plan on changing from the OEM coolant. IMNSHO, an oil cooler would do more good than better antifreeze.

If you're racing, things are probably different and any extra cooling would be worthwhile.

DEpointfive0 · 12-09-2013, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenchan

DE- is your car a race car? are we really the ones not understanding?

In my mind it is, it's modded in such a way that it should be, lol
I just want to see others' logic

( Click to show/hide )

JWillis72 · 12-09-2013, 10:19 AM

where I live we don't get below freezing so I'm changing over to water and Water Wetter before my next track day. You are not allowed to use any glycol based products on the track and everyone I have spoke to seem to love Water Wetter and has seen reduced temps.

WaterWetter® Tech Info

DEpointfive0 · 12-09-2013, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWillis72

where I live we don't get below freezing so I'm changing over to water and Water Wetter before my next track day. You are not allowed to use any glycol based products on the track and everyone I have spoke to seem to love Water Wetter and has seen reduced temps.

WaterWetter® Tech Info

I use water wetter or... The other one (don't remember the name off the top of my head)

12-09-2013, 12:31 AM	#1 (permalink)
DEpointfive0 Premium Member Bitches Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SoCal Posts: 14,824 Drives: a lot Rep Power: 17151	Discussion: Let's talk coolant Mods, if you'd prefer this was somewhere else, feel free to move it; thank you Let's talk about the science of antifreeze/coolant (TO MY KNOWLEDGE): Radiator fluid gets beaten to death 6 ways from Sunday, but I would like to see what others' input is on the topic. The goal of the radiator is to keep fluid temps DOWN, the goal of the fluid is to draw heat away from the block and a side "goal" is to keep pressure UP; It is the reason for higher pressure radiator caps; the higher the pressure, the higher the temperature of the fluid has to get to boil; the goal of that is to keep liquid as LIQUID. That being said: Let's accept some basic facts "Straight water is the best coolant." As soon as the fluid boils, the rapid expansion of liquid to gas will immediately overcome the pressure of the coolant cap, and the car will overheat almost immediately because steam SUCKS at drawing heat away from something. Also, even though it is mainly sold as "antifreeze" the real purpose of coolant for MOST the population is to RAISE boiling point, lubricate the water pump, and prevent corrosion even if you use tap water. (Of course not for those who live in places where it freezes over) So, water boils at 100 deg C, 212 deg F (at sea level) In a pressurized system, assume 15 PSI, the BP (boiling point) is 120C/248F In a normal 50:50 solution at 15PSI the BP is 129C/265F Ethylene glycol (standard coolant's main ingredient) STARTS with a BP of 197C/387F; MUCH higher than any combination of coolant and water (let's assume something like 170C/338 since it's not 100% pure) So the dilemma is that coolant isn't THE best at drawing heat away from the block, and its regarded as too thick to run straight; AND even the smallest amount of water dramatically lowers the BP of the solution. So what do you run as coolant? Side option: Evans Waterless Coolant; BP is at 190C/375F, it's lifetime, and supposedly 100% safe zefaulter likes this. __________________ Do YOU want to know what/where I got my username from? ( Click to show/hide ) NSFW due to language:

12-09-2013, 01:02 AM	#2 (permalink)
2xtreme1 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Eastvale, California Age: 32 Posts: 494 Drives: 11' 370Z 7 A/T Sport Rep Power: 13	o,o what? anyways..umm my honda was close to over-heating couple months ago. The temp was nearly up to max, but I pulled over and let it go down a bit. On the freeway, however, the temp was not going up dramatically. When I got home, my dad just said I had like low water or something, and he simply just added um drinking water for a bottle in the thing where the water and or coolant goes I think. Everything seems fine now.. Is this what you are reffering to? lol Last edited by 2xtreme1; 12-09-2013 at 01:15 AM.

12-09-2013, 01:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
DEpointfive0 Premium Member Bitches Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SoCal Posts: 14,824 Drives: a lot Rep Power: 17151	^Not at all, you were just running low on fluid, that's a different scenario __________________ Do YOU want to know what/where I got my username from? ( Click to show/hide ) NSFW due to language:

12-09-2013, 08:22 AM	#4 (permalink)
IDZRVIT A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2009 Location: Halifax Posts: 1,659 Drives: '13 CTS-V, '76 Vette Rep Power: 27	For starters, straight water in a cooling system, is not the best coolant for those who think this way. The cooling system is designed to meet a certain specification. Let's say it's cruising at 70 mph, A/C on, ambient outside temp 120 F for 6 hours with a standard 50/50 coolant mix. Most cars will never need to endure those conditions. So, the standard 50/50 mix will get the job done. If you increase the coolant's BP to 375 F using waterless coolant, the question you need to ask is why do I need to do this when the standard 50/50 mix works just fine? And, if your running a coolant temp of 350F with a waterless coolant, your oem rad probably can't reject that amount of coolant heat. Engine seals may begin to fail, water pump may fail and maybe catastrphic failure of the engine because it's not designed to run at 350 F. Now how hot will your oil temp be? Sounds like pure racing stuff. Using this stuff to remedy an overheating engine is not the way to go. Over heating of the engine, i.e. coolant sytems is probably a problem with the radiator, water pump or partial blockage to the flow of coolant somewhere. Fix the problem and don't use a band aid fix. In summary, the waterless coolant has it's use like in racing, I assume imho. __________________ "America.... still builds rockets!" Vette: 355 cid, 400 rwhp '13 CTS-V Coupe: 6.2L LSA, 556HP Last edited by IDZRVIT; 12-09-2013 at 08:32 AM.

12-09-2013, 08:33 AM	#6 (permalink)
Masterbeatty A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2012 Location: Whales Vagina Posts: 4,586 Drives: the speed limit... Rep Power: 122867	I Have no clue but i have a speculation. Per the OEM it only calls for regular coolant and not the waterless stuff. I would call evens up and talk to them about the chemical composition of their automotive product before trying it out, it wasnt on their website. You never know if the VQ engine is made of some metal that counter acts with it, might be good for a ford or chevy but not nissan. Also i dont know if it is allowed to be used for track use. NASA and SCCA didnt specify in the rule book. __________________ 2011 MB 6MT Masterbeatty journal

12-09-2013, 08:24 AM	#5 (permalink)
Justice97 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: San Antonio Posts: 387 Drives: 11 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 16	I've always wondered how machining coolant would perform in a radiator. It adds lubricity and is used for removing heat during metal removal. I wonder what the boiling point is of a 6% mix of machining coolant is. I would not try it in my Z, but maybe the Taurus.

12-09-2013, 10:01 AM	#8 (permalink)
kenchan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N/A Posts: 76,801 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 141521	i just use watever the Z came with. i mean hell... i paid for it, right? falconfixer likes this.

12-09-2013, 10:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
DEpointfive0 Premium Member Bitches Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SoCal Posts: 14,824 Drives: a lot Rep Power: 17151	I guess people aren't understanding... I don't have a cooling problem, hell, I have an oversize radiator. This is just a discussion, I throw out the waterless product more as a question as to what you think of the product or the logic behind it __________________ Do YOU want to know what/where I got my username from? ( Click to show/hide ) NSFW due to language:

12-09-2013, 10:11 AM	#11 (permalink)
kenchan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N/A Posts: 76,801 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 141521	DE- is your car a race car? are we really the ones not understanding?

12-09-2013, 10:14 AM	#12 (permalink)
SouthArk370Z Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 8,435 Drives: 2014 Challenger Rep Power: 324198	I'm not so sure that cooling is actually the main function of coolant any more. Sure, it's important, but corrosion control is just as, if not more, important. The cooling system on the Z seems to be marginal, so a coolant that cools better should be advantageous but I would have to be very sure that anything I used was compatible with the materials used in the engine and radiator. So far, my DD has been handling the S AR heat well (not great but good enough), so I don't plan on changing from the OEM coolant. IMNSHO, an oil cooler would do more good than better antifreeze. If you're racing, things are probably different and *any* extra cooling would be worthwhile. Michaelfmille likes this. __________________ Steering Lock Links - Search The370Z Bookmarklet - FSM @ NICOclub Mankind has progressed past the need for war but we haven't evolved that far. - NachoMahma

12-09-2013, 10:19 AM	#14 (permalink)
JWillis72 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 2,002 Drives: 2009 370Z yellow 7AT Rep Power: 45	where I live we don't get below freezing so I'm changing over to water and Water Wetter before my next track day. You are not allowed to use any glycol based products on the track and everyone I have spoke to seem to love Water Wetter and has seen reduced temps. WaterWetter® Tech Info

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