Nismo or boss ?

m4a1mustang · 05-28-2013, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by /Angelo350Z/

I'd do my research, but I don't really care enough. Do Mustangs have independent rear suspension yet?

Nope. But everyone should know by now that doesn't matter.

/Angelo350Z/ · 05-28-2013, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Nope. But everyone should know by now that doesn't matter.

Why is that? Because ultimately the new GT keeps up with an M3 on a track?

Just curious what your opinion is.

m4a1mustang · 05-28-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by /Angelo350Z/

Why is that? Because ultimately the new GT keeps up with an M3 on a track?

Just curious what your opinion is.

Because it hasn't really hindered performance, and contrary to what most believe live axles are not always inferior to a independent setup.

Here's a bit of what Billy Johnson had to say on the matter over on S2KI. Billy races the Roush Mustang in the Continental Tire series and has also done some NASCAR road racing.

Quote:

It's been said that the recent 'purist' viewpoint/train of thought has shifted the generally accepted consensus that IRS (Independent Rear Suspension) is superior to stick-axles when it is not necessarily true. While the camber gain and bumpsteer of IRS can edge out a stick-axle in peak mid-corner grip, it can become a disadvantage on entry and especially exit of corners. "The fastest accelerating cars in the world have stick-axles". By maintaining an even rear platform, stick-axles have inherent advantages that at the end of the day, can be as good if not better than an IRS. In many cases its harder to make an IRS work better than a stick-axle, pending rules of the series, which stick-axle design you are looking at, etc... But at the end of the day, in CTSCC, a ~stock geometry Mustang out handles and comes out of corners better than the E92 M3 but currently due to rules, the M3 outbrakes and has more power to out accelerate the Mustang on the top end.

Ultimately you end up having to move to a IRS setup on a street car (next gen Mustang is going to be IRS), but not necessarily for performance reasons. For one, you don't have to design a chassis with a big ole hump in the back to fit the rear axle. This gives you more efficient use of space and would actually make the rear seats of the Mustang useful.

There are more reasons we could get into, but the bottom line is as far as performance goes, the solid axle is not the crutch that most like to say it is.

m4a1mustang · 05-28-2013, 08:56 AM

Anyways, back to the OP, I just realized you've already got your NISMO. Since you've only had it for 3 months... keep it!

/Angelo350Z/ · 05-28-2013, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Because it hasn't really hindered performance, and contrary to what most believe live axles are not always inferior to a independent setup.

Here's a bit of what Billy Johnson had to say on the matter over on S2KI. Billy races the Roush Mustang in the Continental Tire series and has also done some NASCAR road racing.

Ultimately you end up having to move to a IRS setup on a street car (next gen Mustang is going to be IRS), but not necessarily for performance reasons. For one, you don't have to design a chassis with a big ole hump in the back to fit the rear axle. This gives you more efficient use of space and would actually make the rear seats of the Mustang useful.

There are more reasons we could get into, but the bottom line is as far as performance goes, the solid axle is not the crutch that most like to say it is.

I appreciate the informative response. So everybody knows this but me? Man, I really have been busy. Anyway, I'll reserve my judgment and do more reading.

m4a1mustang · 05-28-2013, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by /Angelo350Z/

I appreciate the informative response. So everybody knows this but me? Man, I really have been busy. Anyway, I'll reserve my judgment and do more reading.

Let's face it, the Mustang *shouldn't* be live axle. It should have ditched it a decade ago. But they didn't. And it didn't help that for the longest time they handled like crap, so everyone just assumed stick axles can't handle. By the time they actually put together a serious chassis and got the geometry right... that's a hard stigma to shake.

/Angelo350Z/ · 05-28-2013, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Let's face it, the Mustang *shouldn't* be live axle. It should have ditched it a decade ago. But they didn't. And it didn't help that for the longest time they handled like crap, so everyone just assumed stick axles can't handle. By the time they actually put together a serious chassis and got the geometry right... that's a hard stigma to shake.

Have you taken your Mustang on a track? If so, which one?

m4a1mustang · 05-28-2013, 09:12 AM

Haven't tracked it. I don't have a Mustang anymore though. 2013 "Dat Blue Doe" 370 now.

/Angelo350Z/ · 05-28-2013, 09:15 AM

What do you know, turns out we have the same car. High five.

m4a1mustang · 05-28-2013, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by /Angelo350Z/

What do you know, turns out we have the same car. High five.

Best color ever!

Caustic · 05-28-2013, 11:17 AM

The whole live axle vs IRS is a ridiculous debate. Billy Johnson is right from a technical standpoint. But he is also speaking from a professional standpoint, which most of are not.

The main difference between a live (stick, solid, or whatever you want to call it) vs IRS is grip and consistency. When a wheel connected to a live axle hits a bump, both wheels are affected in terrible ways. It completely throws off the handling to all but the best of drivers.

IRS is a benefit when a wheel hits a bump, the opposing wheel is still settled, the handling characteristics on the opposing wheel haven't changed. This creates consistency and predictability for handling in the majority of conditions.

The point being is that when you see Mustangs closing in on M3 lap times, everyone points it out as the Mustang being as fast and as good as the M3. But the reality is these those lap times are close because professional drivers have the ability to correct for the Mustangs weaknesses.

You put weekend warrior track day drivers in those two cars, the driver in the M3 will consistently outperform the Mustang driver by a large amount. The Mustang driver will have their hands full every time they clip an apex and roll over rumble strips.

Live axle technology is good for just one thing, price. If there were little difference between live and IRS, why does every high end race car have IRS?

/Angelo350Z/ · 05-28-2013, 11:33 AM

I've ran my 350Z on the Nurburgring more than a hundred times. Honestly, there's no way a car with a solid axle will be as quick as something with independent rear suspension, same weight, similar suspension modifications, and driver skill. Still, I wanted to know what m4a1mustang had to say about the Mustang. I never drove a car with a solid axle on the Nordschleife, but I have on the Autobahn. Honestly, it's really not the same. The elevation changes and entry speed on the Nurburgring will definitely cause a problem for a stock Mustang, or any other car with a stick axle. Not all race tracks are flat.

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-28-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymondo510

Well said

I second that.

/Angelo350Z/ · 05-28-2013, 11:43 AM

Just a few pics

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-28-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

But in the US, most people are shopping on price. Someone that "wants a sporty car" is going to look at every sporty car in their price range.

That type of buyer is far more common than an enthusiast that says "I want a Z" or "I want a Mustang" or "I want a Corvette." I'll go out on a limb and say that most people that actively post on this forum didn't even have to think about buying their Z.

I test drove everything bruh. Some i test drove twice. It took 3 test drives on the Z before i bought it.

Thats why i call Fanboy on a lot of comments on here.

05-28-2013, 08:56 AM	#34 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	Anyways, back to the OP, I just realized you've already got your NISMO. Since you've only had it for 3 months... keep it! __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

05-28-2013, 09:12 AM	#38 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	Haven't tracked it. I don't have a Mustang anymore though. 2013 "Dat Blue Doe" 370 now. __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

05-28-2013, 09:15 AM	#39 (permalink)
/Angelo350Z/ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Germany Posts: 2,230 Drives: Z34 \| MK7 \| F82 Rep Power: 3660	What do you know, turns out we have the same car. High five. __________________ 2013 MB NISSAN 370Z SPORT

05-28-2013, 11:33 AM	#42 (permalink)
/Angelo350Z/ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Germany Posts: 2,230 Drives: Z34 \| MK7 \| F82 Rep Power: 3660	I've ran my 350Z on the Nurburgring more than a hundred times. Honestly, there's no way a car with a solid axle will be as quick as something with independent rear suspension, same weight, similar suspension modifications, and driver skill. Still, I wanted to know what m4a1mustang had to say about the Mustang. I never drove a car with a solid axle on the Nordschleife, but I have on the Autobahn. Honestly, it's really not the same. The elevation changes and entry speed on the Nurburgring will definitely cause a problem for a stock Mustang, or any other car with a stick axle. Not all race tracks are flat. __________________ 2013 MB NISSAN 370Z SPORT

05-28-2013, 11:43 AM	#44 (permalink)
/Angelo350Z/ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Germany Posts: 2,230 Drives: Z34 \| MK7 \| F82 Rep Power: 3660	Just a few pics __________________ 2013 MB NISSAN 370Z SPORT

05-28-2013, 11:17 AM	#41 (permalink)
Caustic Base Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 243 Drives: '02 Acura NSX Rep Power: 13	The whole live axle vs IRS is a ridiculous debate. Billy Johnson is right from a technical standpoint. But he is also speaking from a professional standpoint, which most of are not. The main difference between a live (stick, solid, or whatever you want to call it) vs IRS is grip and consistency. When a wheel connected to a live axle hits a bump, both wheels are affected in terrible ways. It completely throws off the handling to all but the best of drivers. IRS is a benefit when a wheel hits a bump, the opposing wheel is still settled, the handling characteristics on the opposing wheel haven't changed. This creates consistency and predictability for handling in the majority of conditions. The point being is that when you see Mustangs closing in on M3 lap times, everyone points it out as the Mustang being as fast and as good as the M3. But the reality is these those lap times are close because professional drivers have the ability to correct for the Mustangs weaknesses. You put weekend warrior track day drivers in those two cars, the driver in the M3 will consistently outperform the Mustang driver by a large amount. The Mustang driver will have their hands full every time they clip an apex and roll over rumble strips. Live axle technology is good for just one thing, price. If there were little difference between live and IRS, why does every high end race car have IRS?

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