Car and Driver's Cars Worth Waiting For: 2016 Z

Chuck33079 · 05-25-2013, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

The price is killing the Z. It happened with the last 300z and its happening now. Part of the reason the 350 did so well was because it was relatively cheap.

This is the problem in a nutshell. It needs to be better to compete at its current price point, but the improvements cost money. It's a fine line between improving the car and killing sales with the price. I'd hate for the Z to get killed off again because the market won't support a $45-50k Z. It'll never have Mustang/Camaro sales. It's much more of a niche product than the domestic pony cars.

Nismodean · 05-25-2013, 05:41 PM

The price isn't the problem, the people wanted something to look good and sound good but not be really that good. Quality, people, costs money. Which is why the 370Z costs more than the 350Z. Bigger engine, better interior, more hp/tq, bigger brakes, better technology! You won't get that sh¡t for the same price from the last model. Try to be more realistic please! I mean come on... 35K for the best dollar/performance sports car is NOT bad. I'm about to go out and drive my 370Z and love it, you guys go ahead and stare in misery at yours.....

Caustic · 05-25-2013, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nismodean

The price isn't the problem, the people wanted something to look good and sound good but not be really that good. Quality, people, costs money. Which is why the 370Z costs more than the 350Z. Bigger engine, better interior, more hp/tq, bigger brakes, better technology! You won't get that sh¡t for the same price from the last model. Try to be more realistic please! I mean come on... 35K for the best dollar/performance sports car is NOT bad. I'm about to go out and drive my 370Z and love it, you guys go ahead and stare in misery at yours.....

Sorry man, but price is the problem. You are right of course, quality costs money, and that directly affects price. People, reviewers, critics all expect improvements on all fronts when a new car comes out. Nissan provided that, but it also priced them out of sweet spot of sales.

You can look throughout all of the Z history, and most other car lines for that matter, how price (and everything else that goes with it, including quality) affects purchasing. When the Z originally hit the American market, it was essentially today's Toyobaru with an inline six. Cheap car, small revvy engine, great handling. The reason the 300z ended with a hiatus was specifically because it became too expensive. It was more luxurious, it was absolutely more powerful, but it wasn't what the Z was originally about.

Consider this, the Toyobaru twins have a weak 4 banger engine, terrible interior, and few options. But they are flying out of the showrooms. You don't think that has anything to do with price?

That is why you see a lot of people saying the 370z should compete with the Toyobaru twins, because they epitomize what the 240z was. The reality is that time has passed, the Z is a different type of car now, but $42k for a fully optioned Z and $45k for a Nismo, are easily $5k more than they should be.

It doesn't make the Z a bad car, just an expensive one.

sfearl1 · 05-25-2013, 08:49 PM

Well put ^^

SS_Firehawk · 05-25-2013, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

Sorry man, but price is the problem. You are right of course, quality costs money, and that directly affects price. People, reviewers, critics all expect improvements on all fronts when a new car comes out. Nissan provided that, but it also priced them out of sweet spot of sales.

You can look throughout all of the Z history, and most other car lines for that matter, how price (and everything else that goes with it, including quality) affects purchasing. When the Z originally hit the American market, it was essentially today's Toyobaru with an inline six. Cheap car, small revvy engine, great handling. The reason the 300z ended with a hiatus was specifically because it became too expensive. It was more luxurious, it was absolutely more powerful, but it wasn't what the Z was originally about.

Consider this, the Toyobaru twins have a weak 4 banger engine, terrible interior, and few options. But they are flying out of the showrooms. You don't think that has anything to do with price?

That is why you see a lot of people saying the 370z should compete with the Toyobaru twins, because they epitomize what the 240z was. The reality is that time has passed, the Z is a different type of car now, but $42k for a fully optioned Z and $45k for a Nismo, are easily $5k more than they should be.

It doesn't make the Z a bad car, just an expensive one.

Remember that the price they sell it for directly results in the value of the yen. The yen was getting stronger against the dollar for the past few years. It wasn't until recently that it started dropping again. Building a car for X amount of yen, then selling it for X amount of dollars, they need to have a profit margin. Sure there is a few thousand in every vehicle, but it is not out of line with the profit margin of a car that is similarly equipped. Now if they are able to build the Z here in the states, they can reduce the cost for manufacture, but they still need to sell enough to justify that investment. Look at what Subaru and Mitsubishi gives for their sports cars. A turbo 4 banger, AWD and not much else, but it costs the same. Nissan isn't alone in this price conspiracy.

Caustic · 05-25-2013, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Remember that the price they sell it for directly results in the value of the yen. The yen was getting stronger against the dollar for the past few years. It wasn't until recently that it started dropping again. Building a car for X amount of yen, then selling it for X amount of dollars, they need to have a profit margin. Sure there is a few thousand in every vehicle, but it is not out of line with the profit margin of a car that is similarly equipped. Now if they are able to build the Z here in the states, they can reduce the cost for manufacture, but they still need to sell enough to justify that investment. Look at what Subaru and Mitsubishi gives for their sports cars. A turbo 4 banger, AWD and not much else, but it costs the same. Nissan isn't alone in this price conspiracy.

There is no doubt to this. The yen burned Nissan. Unfortunately it still won't change the sales numbers for the past few years.

The Z is at a crossroads. Nissan has some real decisions to make on the car. I don't think they want to get into an HP war, it would be smart to avoid it. But they have to compete with the pressure from strong competition.

I think the Toyobaru twins showed there is a strong market out there for sporty cars. And there is big price gap ($10-$12k) between where they sell and where American V8s sell. Nissan can split the difference. Make a small, light, fantastic handling car. Make sure it has a low compression V6, with a small turbo on it, with ok HP, and sell it for $35-$36k. Then basically set up the aftermarket for incredible sales. Give the line a Nismo model that competes with American V8s on performance, more engine, more turbo, more tire, to show the aftermarket what the platform can really do.

I love NA, but the aftermarket is FI. If they go that route, I think that they would have something.

Felix 808 · 05-25-2013, 11:43 PM

Excuse me while I don my asbestos suit

but the more I hear of the next Z speculation (That is all it is at this point in time) the more I have to think how viable is the idea of the next Z? I love my 370z, but let's be honest. Nissan is a company that does not even own itself. Renault owns almost 1/2. Every time I think of this it reminds me of the disastrous LeCar

& Daimler AG owns a piece. Hitachi is also mixed in there somewhere (just read your throttle bodies) Makes me fear a future Car-B-Que down the road

. Numerous factors fall into why the 370z sales slumped. The biggest is the global economy. Most people do not have the disposable income they had almost a decade ago when the 350z came on the scene. How practical is a 2 seat sports car anyway when tight budgets need a family car or better gas mileage? The improved competition & an increase in price point for the Z are factors as well. Every single competitor has a back seat making it more practical. NO I DO NOT WANT A 4 SEAT Z! The Z is also rather long in the tooth for a model designation 40+ years on & off. It would not surprise me if corporate pulls the plug on the Z all together in the next year or 2 until the global economy improves. People say, but Nissan needs a sports car that buffers between the GTR. price point

What Nissan needs is a car that sells in large quantity & unfortunately the 370z is not meeting that goal

. For Nissan to dump untold millions $$$$$$ into developing a new engines, chassis & such that do not share an already common platform to help with return of investment for a car that has been so far behind the sales quota would not be a wise business move for an already struggling company.

Personally I am very happy with my car & intend to hold on to it many year as I do not car hop every couple of years so a new model for me, is one less they will sell.

YMMV

Nismodean · 05-26-2013, 12:35 AM

Why would I want to drive something as common as a rustang, crustaro, or a POS toyobaru? I really don't care if the sales are good. I'd rather they be pitiful. I'd rather drive a nice car that is rarely seen and appreciated when it is seen than a dime a dozen car. Their profit margin isn't my concern nor will it ever be. If it's a crap car I won't buy it. If it's seen on every street corner I won't buy it. I prefer a somewhat exclusive selection at a justifiable price. If 5K is too much for you to handle then why are you guys here? You obviously made the wrong choice.

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just blunt.

Tribalpinoy91 · 05-26-2013, 12:40 AM

Idk about you guys but i'm very glad that everyone can't afford this as easily as lets say a frs/brz/genesis etc.

Makes owning this car special that i only ever spot another 370Z once every month or so, and thats philadelphia, Harrisburg, baltimore and all the areas between..

Chuck33079 · 05-26-2013, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nismodean

Their profit margin isn't my concern nor will it ever be.

You do realize that they'll kill the car if it doesn't make them money, right?

Shadezz · 05-26-2013, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribalpinoy91

Idk about you guys but i'm very glad that everyone can't afford this as easily as lets say a frs/brz/genesis etc.

Makes owning this car special that i only ever spot another 370Z once every month or so, and thats philadelphia, Harrisburg, baltimore and all the areas between..

Agreed....could not tell you last time I had pulled up to another 370z, just don't see a lot around here...Makes me feel special!!!

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-26-2013, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Remember that the price they sell it for directly results in the value of the yen. The yen was getting stronger against the dollar for the past few years. It wasn't until recently that it started dropping again. Building a car for X amount of yen, then selling it for X amount of dollars, they need to have a profit margin. Sure there is a few thousand in every vehicle, but it is not out of line with the profit margin of a car that is similarly equipped. Now if they are able to build the Z here in the states, they can reduce the cost for manufacture, but they still need to sell enough to justify that investment. Look at what Subaru and Mitsubishi gives for their sports cars. A turbo 4 banger, AWD and not much else, but it costs the same. Nissan isn't alone in this price conspiracy.

Yeah, That's why Toyota and subaru are smart. They are selling us a car that's worth about $20,000-$24,000 for $25,000-$31,000 even though this current market can sell the FR-S/BRZ much cheaper. But if there's a sudden spike in the Dollar/yen exchange. They always make money.

And the way they made appealing to buyers was through sponsored corporate hype, making the american market think they were getting the best car on the planet by adding the worst tires possible and controlling the car with nannies. lol

We bought it up. The FR-S is as good as a Ferrari for $25k. lol American media are evil geniuses. It works on 80% of the population whenever they throw it, most people eat it even if it's sitting on shyt. Thats why every 6 months the news tells you broccoli causes cancer and between that they tell you about broccoli's anti-oxidants and phyto cells blah blah blah... may prevent cancer. So we can go on forums and debate if broccoli is healthy or causes cancer. Same shyt in the car game. Media hype and Forum debates.

confused?

The Z needs to have an s30 style chassis and a Z32 style motor. Everything else in the middle can be worked out if nissan really wants too?

nmjaxx9 · 05-26-2013, 01:25 PM

This **** looks like some matchbox type stuff.

Wack design, and even wacker people behind the scenes.

seizer8 · 05-26-2013, 02:02 PM

To me the new design looks too tall in the roof line. It takes away from the sleekness the car has now. Could just be the concept rendering, but I hope it's lower to the ground than this.

asdfsammich · 05-26-2013, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

I'm all for having a Cayman S or 991 variant as a benchmark. I don't care how they get there, so long as the result is comparable. I'm also all for an evolutionary design as opposed to a retro or all new. Nissan did create the GTR and it rapes everything under $400k. I trust they will make the Z special as they say.

I hope you're right. It need to be GTR-like not by competing with the GTR segment (super cars) but GTR-like because they figure out how to make it perform best in it's own segment (sports car/coupes) while still being less costly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

... The Z needs to have an s30 style chassis and a Z32 style motor. Everything else in the middle can be worked out if nissan really wants too?

Evolving from these ideas and our current looks would be a huge win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nmjaxx9

This **** looks like some matchbox type stuff.

Wack design, and even wacker people behind the scenes.

Exactly. I hope the render and the rumors are way off.

Tapatalk2 ...

05-25-2013, 05:41 PM	#77 (permalink)
Nismodean Enthusiast Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Washington Posts: 313 Drives: 2009 RIP Now 2012 Rep Power: 15	The price isn't the problem, the people wanted something to look good and sound good but not be really that good. Quality, people, costs money. Which is why the 370Z costs more than the 350Z. Bigger engine, better interior, more hp/tq, bigger brakes, better technology! You won't get that sh¡t for the same price from the last model. Try to be more realistic please! I mean come on... 35K for the best dollar/performance sports car is NOT bad. I'm about to go out and drive my 370Z and love it, you guys go ahead and stare in misery at yours..... PapoZalsa and Bucketlist2012 like this. __________________ The Truth, it hurts sometimes. FI LTH & FI CF CBE. This is a 370Z forum, if I want to fling poo at another brand of car and your feelings get hurt, then you're hanging out in the wrong forum (cry elsewhere). Last edited by Nismodean; 05-25-2013 at 05:46 PM.

05-25-2013, 08:49 PM	#79 (permalink)
sfearl1 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: St. Louis Posts: 2,300 Drives: 2013 FBO E85 GTR Rep Power: 18	Well put ^^ __________________ Scott

05-25-2013, 11:43 PM	#82 (permalink)
Felix 808 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Camarillo, CA Posts: 1,063 Drives: 2011 PW/Grey T/S 7AT Rep Power: 2807	Excuse me while I don my asbestos suit but the more I hear of the next Z speculation (That is all it is at this point in time) the more I have to think how viable is the idea of the next Z? I love my 370z, but let's be honest. Nissan is a company that does not even own itself. Renault owns almost 1/2. Every time I think of this it reminds me of the disastrous LeCar & Daimler AG owns a piece. Hitachi is also mixed in there somewhere (just read your throttle bodies) Makes me fear a future Car-B-Que down the road . Numerous factors fall into why the 370z sales slumped. The biggest is the global economy. Most people do not have the disposable income they had almost a decade ago when the 350z came on the scene. How practical is a 2 seat sports car anyway when tight budgets need a family car or better gas mileage? The improved competition & an increase in price point for the Z are factors as well. Every single competitor has a back seat making it more practical. NO I DO NOT WANT A 4 SEAT Z! The Z is also rather long in the tooth for a model designation 40+ years on & off. It would not surprise me if corporate pulls the plug on the Z all together in the next year or 2 until the global economy improves. People say, but Nissan needs a sports car that buffers between the GTR. price point What Nissan needs is a car that sells in large quantity & unfortunately the 370z is not meeting that goal . For Nissan to dump untold millions $$$$$$ into developing a new engines, chassis & such that do not share an already common platform to help with return of investment for a car that has been so far behind the sales quota would not be a wise business move for an already struggling company. Personally I am very happy with my car & intend to hold on to it many year as I do not car hop every couple of years so a new model for me, is one less they will sell. YMMV __________________ Semper Fi Μολὼν λαβέ

05-26-2013, 12:35 AM	#83 (permalink)
Nismodean Enthusiast Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Washington Posts: 313 Drives: 2009 RIP Now 2012 Rep Power: 15	Why would I want to drive something as common as a rustang, crustaro, or a POS toyobaru? I really don't care if the sales are good. I'd rather they be pitiful. I'd rather drive a nice car that is rarely seen and appreciated when it is seen than a dime a dozen car. Their profit margin isn't my concern nor will it ever be. If it's a crap car I won't buy it. If it's seen on every street corner I won't buy it. I prefer a somewhat exclusive selection at a justifiable price. If 5K is too much for you to handle then why are you guys here? You obviously made the wrong choice. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just blunt. __________________ The Truth, it hurts sometimes. FI LTH & FI CF CBE. This is a 370Z forum, if I want to fling poo at another brand of car and your feelings get hurt, then you're hanging out in the wrong forum (cry elsewhere). Last edited by Nismodean; 05-26-2013 at 12:37 AM.

05-26-2013, 02:02 PM	#89 (permalink)
seizer8 Base Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Carol Stream IL Chicago Posts: 103 Drives: 2010 Z Touring AT Rep Power: 13	To me the new design looks too tall in the roof line. It takes away from the sleekness the car has now. Could just be the concept rendering, but I hope it's lower to the ground than this. __________________ 2010 Platinum Graphite, Touring; Custom Coated Sport Brakes; Z1 Drilled and Slotted Rotors; SS Brake Lines; Hood Struts; Rear LED Fog Light; GT-R Wheels; LED Interior Lighting Sunday Cars and Coffee

05-26-2013, 12:40 AM	#84 (permalink)
Tribalpinoy91 Track Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 607 Drives: 370z PW Rep Power: 15	Idk about you guys but i'm very glad that everyone can't afford this as easily as lets say a frs/brz/genesis etc. Makes owning this car special that i only ever spot another 370Z once every month or so, and thats philadelphia, Harrisburg, baltimore and all the areas between..

05-26-2013, 01:25 PM	#88 (permalink)
nmjaxx9 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Middletown, Ct Posts: 5,853 Drives: 2011 Nissan 370z Rep Power: 26	This **** looks like some matchbox type stuff. Wack design, and even wacker people behind the scenes.

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