Another CSC failure?
 

TL;DR:

I think my CSC failed. No warranty. What should I do?


So, I think I have fallen victim to Nissan's poor CSC. Or at least, I think it's the CSC.

I have a 2009, only 12.2K miles. Removed the clutch helper spring about 600 miles ago. I think I first noticed issues when the clutch pedal felt really mushy when cold, but would stiffen up and become more consistent with some driving. Unfortunately, I'm kind of ignorant sometimes.

I wanted to drive out, and without much of a deal, turned the motor over, disengaged the parking brake, and clutched in. First gear didn't engage. By that, the clutch went all the way in, but I didn't hear the chattering clutch become silent. It wouldn't bite first gear, almost as if it were locking me out. Kicked the clutch in a few times, managed to drop it into first and into the next gears. I figured it might have been me.

Well, over a 20 minute drive to my friend's house, the engagement point was literally a millimeter off the floor, and I occasionally couldn't even get the gears in. I'm surprised I even made it this far.

I know a little bit about this issue, enough to say it's either the dreaded CSC issue, or it's a throwout bearing (which I think is part of the CSC). One thing's for sure, I'm having this thing towed to the nearest dealer and getting it inspected... right after I reinstall the clutch helper spring (even though it's unrelated and it's only to ensure the dealer doesn't try to pull a fast one).:shakes head:

Those 12.2 thousand miles on the odometer weren't very harsh; spirited driving, a few launches at 3K (definitely not recently), and I don't drive retardedly. If that's a word. There's no clutch slip, as far as I can tell.

Some opinions would be appreciated!

EDIT:
Some post-posting thread searching, I remembered I posted in a thread about a similar, if not exactly the same component failure in the Tech Area. Unfortunately, the tech area is very much a quiet area with very few posts per day. However, the OP mentioned the idea of simply going with a stronger system from the get-go while the engine/transmission is dropped; new clutch + flywheel to accompany the ZSpeed CSC. Not a bad idea? It's a good thing the Z is a weekend car; I need new tires, too, but it looks like the RE11's are gonna have to wait a bit. Some suggestions on clutch/flywheel kits would be great, too. I know a few members are running Southbend clutches to good effect; the TZR looks interesting, but I don't know if it's for me. I don't mind a bit more pedal pressure, but I know for sure I don't need unsprung six pucks (or even sprung six pucks, for that matter). I don't think I'm ready for NHRA level street driving yet. All I want is a kit that will eat 500 torques without trouble. I don't even want to know about what happens over 500 horsepower anyway.

Dont buy the south bend. I have stage 2 kevlar/ flywheel kit and csc and hate the I got it installed.

Too much chatter?

Nissan recommends that the CSC be replaced when the clutch is replaced, even with stock parts. They say it is something to do with contamination, but I think it is really just because the part is crappy. So much for "progress".

First thing, check the clutch fluid level. Consider bleeding the clutch line if there is no sign of fluid loss.

There is a chance that it is covered under the drivetrain warranty, but with an aftermarket clutch they might fight you on that one since the CSC directly engages the clutch pressure plate and any sizing error can cause problems. Did this clutch require a CSC adapter ring for proper engagement?

If it does need replacement I think the Z-speed is your best choice.

I'm going aftermarket for a few reasons. I don't want to pay the huge labor charge pf dropping the transmission just to replace the CSC, and there's always the risk they'll tell me it's not covered. There's also the risk of the flimsy, plastic CSC failing again very soon afterwards. There's not a single sign of air in the clutch, since the fluid level is just below max (cold) and has never been touched, to my knowledge, since the car was bought. I am all stock right now, save for an axleback. The clutch pedal has also been extremely spongy for the several times I've depressed it over the course of a day. This is me considering going aftermarket clutch, flywheel, and CSC because I eventually want a twin turbo setup.

My bad, got the impression that your clutch was already aftermarket.

I think you are a good candidate for a clutch bleed if you want to try and get more life out of it. The clutch fluid does get pretty nasty. But if you're ready for the upgrade then there's no time like the present.

From what you are describing your CSC is not going out. This seems more like a fluid issue. Replace the fluid with Motul RBF-600. This should solve issue.
Tip:
Get a vacuum on the bleeder before you open the bleeder valve. This will keep any air from getting into the system.

Indeed, it sounds like a good alternative to a + $2000 dollar replacement right now. Since FI is far into the future, the present might be a great time...

It is sitting at a Nissan dealership, so I will find myself some good fluid and carefully supervise to ensure they actually use it. Maybe they won't charge me some exorbitant price for the service.

Also, now I'm going to feel very bad about this, but the car is over three years old and has not once seen a clutch fluid flush. Hopefully, this will alleviate the problem.

Are there any alternatives to RBF600? I'm trying to source the stuff locally but the longer the car sits, the more work I miss. I have a special circumstance, so don't worry about the whole work thing.

EDIT:

By the way, I just called the dealer and asked for how much it would be to bleed and flush the clutch fluid. 145 dollars. I laughed in their face and they hung up.

I'm also having a hell of a time trying to find some brake fluid that isn't some generic Autozone or Walmart crap. I know Nissan uses Motul fluids, but only for sponsored racing. The closest place is 45 minutes away and they're actually out of stock.

you shouldn't need a clutch fluid flush in just 3yrs, unless you track the car and overwhelm the system often. hell, nissan's maintenance 2 doesn't even recommend a clutch service flush the last time i checked.

i think your piston is shot and i would just pay the dealer or your shop to get that swapped out. yah it's going to cost some $ but oh well, better than not having your Z to play with on the weekends. gotta pay to play.

I'm going to try a flush only because it's so inexpensive. Might as well get it safely driven to my home instead of having it towed for even more money. Pay to play is the game. I'm just trying to see if I can skirt by with an interim payment.

oh ok... but i think the root cause is the piston failure... how much fluid is in your reserve?

The best stuff you can find right now at Autozone is Vavoline Synthetic brake fluid. It is actually pretty decent and cheap, has as dry boil point of 480F and a wet of 311F. I use it in all my non-track vehicles, I'm sure it is better than what is in there now.

I would also put the clutch spring back in, either stock or the lightweight one. You can have my lightweight one if you want, just pay shipping & handling.

I have since replaced the stock spring, which is kind of odd because the clutch pedal can't even fully actuate back to its unsprung position. I would actually like the lightweight spring, if your handling doesn't include a biochemical fuel charge for your food! :tup:

But it does look like the piston could and likely would be causing this problem. Its most odd because the fluid reservoir shows no change in level (right below max). I would think if the CSC failed, that the fluid would drain/leak, but I'm showing no change, which also leads to me to think the CSC failed because the fluid isn't the issue.

yep, i think it's your piston so fluid change will net you probably nothing... thus i think you should have the dealer replace the unit and bring her home.

The pedal sticks down if there isn't sufficient hydraulic pressure to return it. Definitely sounds like air in the system. Now the reason the air is there is because of 1 of 2 things, either the fluid boiled due to fluid contamination that lowered the boiling point, or air entered the system somewhere. The later seems unlikely at this point as if that were the case then fluid could also leak out the same place.

Just bleed it, takes all of 5-10 minutes. Takes more time getting the car jacked up to get access to the bleed screw.

Bleeding isn't a bad idea. If anything, worst case scenario would be guaranteed, so I might as well take half an hour and bleed with fresh, 10 dollar fluid than dismiss it immediately as CSC failure.

keep us posted how things go.

I will. I called Project X, who does a lot of Z work in the Chicagoland area. They quoted me 400 for install, which already beats the dealership costs. I will change the fluid, and see how it does. At the least, I expect my pedal to come back up.

Tried to bleed the clutch, but it just stopped working. No fluid came out at all. Now the pedal is basically mush. It comes back, just that it's very very soft. I followed spearfish's directions, post 3, here: http://www.the370z.com/diy-section-d...placement.html

It worked the first few times and did drop some fluid, but after the fifth cycle, the fluid level didn't change and no more fluid was coming out the bleed valve. Pedal still returns, but the action is extremely easy and takes less than a pound of force to actuate. Not only am I more convinced that it's now some other issue, but the car is completely undriveable as to being barely driveable.

You have to be very careful to not open the valve too much and only on the downstroke or you will let more air in. The timing is a little tricky but you should be able to do it.

Well I had no issues with the stock clutch to begin with. But I was planning to boost the Z which is no longer in the plans. But I purchased the kit thinking it would be an upgrade, well that's when the problems started. At first when the clutch was installed it was like a sponge and hard to put in 1st and second. Well it couldn't be adjusted. After 2 days i noticed a noise that wouldn't go away. Its like a grinding noise. So i went and took it back to shop and they said it was normal and to change the trans fluid. I did and nothing changed. It became harder to put in gear now. I was told that the lines or master had air in it. Well took it to nissan and got it flushed for $115. Now there is no more air and still makes the grinding noise and its really hard to put in first gear. I must try 2-3 times at every stop/light. And god forbid i try to rev above 4k and try to shift into 2nd cause it will not go in no matter how fast or slow one throws the gear. So dont get in my opinion. Other might of had a great experience.

I agree on the clutch fluid flush first. As far as bleeding it, it can be a complete pain in the ***.

Close the bleeder valve and pump away. You may have to do it 50 times or more. Make sure you keep the clutch fluid container topped off. Open bleeder valve. Repeat.

It took me about half an hour to get the fluid through the system.

But yeah, if this doesn't work, it'll be time to check out the CSC. :(

Subscribing because my car just started doing the same thing. Is there a possibility that the extreme temperatures lately could have created or amplified an issue? I know mine began after a 6 hour road trip in 105 degree weather.

I think you might have something there. My pedal gets really sticky coming back on 90° + weather.

Yes. The hotter the ambient temperature, the higher the chances of your clutch fluid temperature going over it's rated temp and losing its hydraulic properties. You'll find that these clutch issues tend to manifest during the hotter months if it's related to the clutch fluid itself. It happens every year for both the 350 and 370.

Once clutch fluid gets too hot, it will boil, which creates air in the line. The air compresses, which causes the hydraulics to fail.

All my car needed was one hard run during the summer to cook the stock clutch fluid. I remember exactly when it happened. Once that was done, the pedal was never the same.

Once I bled it out with some RBF600 and changed out the rubber clutch hose with the stainless one from Z1, it was perfect. Pain in the *** to bleed out all the air, but definitely worth it.

Please note that this will make no difference if your CSC is failing.

I do not know if this post should be here or not but here goes.

I just changed my brake fluid to DOT 5.1 and had some left over and changed my clutch fluid. It was black and looked like it had well over 13,000 miles on it.

That sounds like a bad install. The grinding noise could be just typical Z chatter, since our Z is such a noisy vehicle. The fact that you can't get into gears sounds like either an issue with actuation, either the master or slave, or possibly trans damage (the least likely, and also the worst scenario). Since you mention it being worse at high RPMs, maybe it could be something to do with the synchros. I'm not an expert, no, but I can't say the problem sits only with the clutch. It sounds like a whole other bucket of worms to me.

The stock brake fluid hasn't been changed and is clear, slightly yellow. The clutch fluid is rather nasty in comparison, and the fluid clearly has some dark particulate swirling around in it. Assuming the same fluid is used, the clutch fluid sure doesn't stay clean much at all, and I'm only at 12.5K miles.

Unfortunately, I could pump the clutch all day and see no difference. I've sat in the car for 20 minutes, doing 2 second down/up cycles with the clutch, and it doesn't stiffen up at all. Bleed valve is closed, fluid topped off (to the max line). I don't understand.

Before attempting to flush, the clutch worked intermittently. Now it doesn't work at all!

Power bleeding is probably the best way to confirm that fluid isn't my issue. Because I have royally screwed up the bleed. Pedal is complete mush, and I basically just hear the fluid swirling around.

I did find this, though, from more research, and I wanted to see if anyone has tried this, or would recommend trying it. As a general idea it makes a lot of sense, and it helps push out any air in the system, which naturally just looks like it would trap air (and apparently has). I will try this before getting a power bleeder, then before a swap. Still no clear sign of failure, due to the lack of leaking fluid.

About six hours ago I went down to my friends' where the Z currently is, and wanted to use the above technique. However, with no one around and the Z just sitting outside, I checked up on it and stepped on the pedal. Pressure! I noticed the reservoir level dropped a bit too. I got a turkey baster and siphoned out the old fluid in the reservoir (pretty nasty stuff) and added fresh fluid, then proceeded to slowly pump. I took it out for a ten minute drive and the engagement was a bit sloppy but still OK. I park it, then take a quick break. I tried to drive it again to absolutely no avail, and it seems the pedal got a bit softer again (although still kinda stiff).

I didn't do anything to it yet, so I'll finally get some daylight, properly flush the entire system, then deliver a verdict.

Good luck!

I finally got around to using the piston oiler/reverse bleed technique. Worked like a charm. Completely restored pressure in the system, and after a few pumps of the pedal, the entire pedal stiffened up. It held up to MORE than a single drive this time! Hopefully it stays this way. It does seem like I managed to boil the fluid. While this does mean I don't have to do the CSC replacement, it does rather make me comfortable with the thought of replacing it with the HD component anyway. I also want to slap on a lightweight flywheel, but I don't really see the point if I don't do the clutch with it all at once.

Funny thing though, if you're using a screw top piston oiler, wrap teflon tape around the threads. Brake fluid, being a hydraulic fluid and not a lubricant, actually will seize the threads. Ended up breaking my piston oiler before I "finished" purging the system, but it seems I had already flushed the system well enough for a firm pedal feel.

That's great news!

Once air is trapped in there in can be difficult to get out, but it seems like the reverse bleed did the trick.

Well, I've driven around some more, and I'm not exactly sure all the things I'm experienced are to be considered normal.

In a 20 minute drive, I experienced minor clutch slip under near WOT. It went away after about five minutes, although it doesn't quite feel exactly the same. Of course, just the fact I thought I felt slip probably predisposes me to think everything is wrong.

The clutch engagement has changed remarkably. Unlike before the issue came up, the entire pedal has pressure (minus the first half inch; still no clutch helper spring). Before, it was kinda floppy for the first inch or two. I guess it's to be expected if there was air in the lines. However, it engaged along the rest of the pedal travel. Now, the engagement is only in the first inch or two after the half inch of play. Everything afterwards is just as stiff, but does pretty much nothing. I can easily disengage gears without even pressing the clutch halfway down. It reminds me of the first few months of owning the Z, except I still had the stock helper spring.

So, I guess what I'm asking is, assuming the flush was either completely or mostly successful in removing air, what can explain the symptoms?

I am also more curious about running ZSpeed's CSC and the Southbend steel flywheel. Any issues in that set up with the OEM pressure plate and clutch disc? I can still confidently say I am going to have the HD CSC installed.

Class action law suit against Nissan in regards to the CSC!
 

Folks, It has finally happened to me and after an exhaustive session with Nissan local dealer and Nissan USA, the result is me putting in the Z1 Motorsports option.
While that is going on, I have currently contacted a lawyer to look into starting a Class Action against Nissan for manufacturing, installing, and allowing this part to fail more often than not and knowing it. As one here has said "The dealership carries extra on hand because of this problem"...not completely verbatim but you all get the point.
What I want is everyone to pm me their story and I will include it in my hopeful interview with a local channel...maybe get some traction on this. Although many of us here can drive manual cars and if a failure occurs, we know how to get ourselves out of harms way, there are still many who do not if they loose clutch pressure, like my lovely wife. So yes, this is a safety issue.
I also encourage all of you who have dealt with this to also contact your states Attorney General and the CFPB (Consumer Finance Protection Bureau).
We can do this folks. We need to be reimbursed and then some for a known fault in the vehicle we love to drive, at least I do!

Keep us posted.