state police behind me and got towed, yay love fuel starve!

Footloose301 · 05-10-2012, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Remember dude, it has to be hard and long.

Oh it was!

SeattleLion · 05-10-2012, 12:12 PM

This is all very interesting. There is no doubt that fuel starvation is an issue for the car. Like the oil overheating (not the same thing but similar in the design issues) it is something that a manufacturer who expects the car to be tracked should handle before making the car.

There are "sporty" looking cars like the Eclipse that are not really meant to track. But since 1969 Z's have been on tracks. It's unbelievable that Nissan engineering was unaware of this problem. Nissan tracks prototypes extensively to shake out any design flaws. So how do we end up with cars that overheat oil, experience brake fade due to heat, and suffer fuel starvation under track conditions?

I think the answer is that in their minds the Nissan engineers assumed that anyone who has track ambitions for a Z will buy the Nismo. I don't know if the Nismo has the fuel starvation issue (I bet it does), but it has always come with an oil cooler and better ventilation for the brakes.

I agree that the problems above did not prevent me from buying and loving my car. It did cost me some money to get an oil cooler, better brake lines and fluid, and better brake pads. In my mind, at least, I can imagine the Nissan engineering team being beaten up by marketing who wanted to hit that under $40k price point. It's a neat trick to build a mid range sports car that can compete with cars costing twice as much. It just seems odd to me that now almost four years after the 370 was introduced, only the oil temp issue has been addressed.

cossie1600 · 05-10-2012, 01:01 PM

Nismo has the same problem. It's just a design issue with the tank or pump, whichever way you like to put it. A lot of cars on the road has the same problem, EXCEPT

A: Not many are this severe. I can hit fuel starve at 3/4 full tank on RE11, think about guys running slicks.
B: I have never heard of people not be able to restart the car after, leaving you stranded like I was in my case.

Remember the Z has a 18 gallons tank, to starve at 3/4 means that you basically run out of fuel at 14 gallons or so, which is scary to think about...

You guys need to stop thinking like this was designed like a race car, it was built as a mass produced vehicles and they look for cost savings and space savings at the end of the day. The racing history has nothing to do with it and frankly none of the race cars share the same features as the street car short of the dash layout and the body shape. Lotus Elise has the same problem too, same with Corvette, but none are this severe.

wstar · 05-10-2012, 01:29 PM

Well, I think the point is that while we know the tank design is faulty in hard right corners, there's a question of degree. Some of that's driving conditions and style, sure. But there might be some real variances that make the problem more dramatic for some people than others.

We already know the fuel gauges on this car are totally unreliable, and since dots on the fuel gauge is what most people are reporting the fuel starve problem by, we have a data accuracy problem on knowing how severe this is. We know we've also had a couple reports of some baffle plate in the fuel tank coming loose and flopping around inside. There could be variances or failures in the pump / fuel cup assembly too. It wouldn't shock me if, in addition to the basic tank design problem, there are other compounding factors that vary car to car.

jboffill · 05-10-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z_ealot

oddly enough on my 2011 i have never had this issue with fuel starvation even when running on 1/4 tank and making long sweeping right hand turns on an onramp going about 50-60....makes me wonder if nissan secretly addressed this issue in the 2011 and up, guess i'll have to wait for some more 2011 and up owners to chime in.

Ive never had that issue and my light has been on a few times and ive done right sweeps all the time in this one road next to my house. Maybe it has been fixed.

SeattleLion · 05-10-2012, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

You guys need to stop thinking like this was designed like a race car, it was built as a mass produced vehicles and they look for cost savings and space savings at the end of the day. The racing history has nothing to do with it and frankly none of the race cars share the same features as the street car short of the dash layout and the body shape. Lotus Elise has the same problem too, same with Corvette, but none are this severe.

It isn't that I think of my car as a race car. I think of it as a car to take to the track for HPDE days. I am very sure that Nissan, like other sports car manufacturers are well aware of this use. Tracking and racing are not the same. It would be dumb for a manufacturer to market a race car to the public. That is a specialized market. However, over the last decade, motorsports (read that as "tracking") has been the fastest growing hobby in the US (according to Proformance Racing School).

Mt Tam I am · 05-10-2012, 05:51 PM

If catastrophic fuel starvation occurs, is it possible to engage the clutch in order to save yourself?

I assume the car locks up in gear and you careen off the track.

cossie1600 · 05-10-2012, 06:44 PM

You are absolutely right that the result varies, but that is more related to the drivers (btw if you still run with your VDC, chances are that you won't hit it) and not the car. Are you going to have variance between cars? Absolutely, but it's not going to be by much. This is assuming gas tanks and fuel pump assembly are the same for the 4 year run, which seems to be the case based on the part numbers. My gas tank is a new, replaced at 13K miles or something. I hit fuel starve with the first tank, and this tank also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Well, I think the point is that while we know the tank design is faulty in hard right corners, there's a question of degree. Some of that's driving conditions and style, sure. But there might be some real variances that make the problem more dramatic for some people than others.

We already know the fuel gauges on this car are totally unreliable, and since dots on the fuel gauge is what most people are reporting the fuel starve problem by, we have a data accuracy problem on knowing how severe this is. We know we've also had a couple reports of some baffle plate in the fuel tank coming loose and flopping around inside. There could be variances or failures in the pump / fuel cup assembly too. It wouldn't shock me if, in addition to the basic tank design problem, there are other compounding factors that vary car to car.

I have been tracking for 10+ years, there are very few cars (below 75K) that you can take straight to the track from the showroom and be able to do a full sessions at speed. Brake pads and fluids are usually the minimum you have to do. Oil cooler and fuel starve to this level are indeed very rare, but then it's not out of the norm given the performance you get from this vehicle. I am not happy about spending the $700 on the oil cooler, but I can understand why I have to spend it. I don't think doing 20 minutes track session is the test requirement on most cars being sold on the street, sports car or not.

Btw, the ceremic brakes on the 911 are advertised as track brakes, yet I can tell you they will MELT after one complete 20 minute track sessions. People who have them usually swap to regular brakes before each track day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleLion

It isn't that I think of my car as a race car. I think of it as a car to take to the track for HPDE days. I am very sure that Nissan, like other sports car manufacturers are well aware of this use. Tracking and racing are not the same. It would be dumb for a manufacturer to market a race car to the public. That is a specialized market. However, over the last decade, motorsports (read that as "tracking") has been the fastest growing hobby in the US (according to Proformance Racing School).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt Tam I am

If catastrophic fuel starvation occurs, is it possible to engage the clutch in order to save yourself?

I assume the car locks up in gear and you careen off the track.

I don't know if anyone has blown a motor due to the fuel starve, but the engine doesn't seize up in my experiences. It is basically like hitting the fuel limiter except the car won't fire or struggles to fire.

AlphaSnacks · 05-10-2012, 07:52 PM

Has anyone every tried the ECU reset pedal trick to fix this, as opposed to filling the car up or towing it to a station? If it is a purely mechanical issue, then no the ECU reset will not work. But if it is an electrical issue where the car is being told there's no gas - resetting the ECU could solve it.

cossie1600 · 05-10-2012, 08:03 PM

If it was electrical, my car wouldn't start on the first crank after I got to the gas station....

ChrisSlicks · 05-10-2012, 10:26 PM

Sorry you got to experience this. When it happened to me a couple of years ago on the street we were able to refire it after adding just 1 gallon of fuel, I'm guessing because the fill neck is on the passenger side.

On track with slicks I can get fuel starve after burning just 3.5 gallons, on 2.0 mile track that's about 9 laps. Can't even get through a 20 minute session on a completely full tank, sputters after 15 minutes or so.

kensin0429 · 05-10-2012, 11:26 PM

I've had it with all.led off for about
10 extra mile >.<

Mike · 05-10-2012, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

Sorry you got to experience this. When it happened to me a couple of years ago on the street we were able to refire it after adding just 1 gallon of fuel, I'm guessing because the fill neck is on the passenger side.

On track with slicks I can get fuel starve after burning just 3.5 gallons, on 2.0 mile track that's about 9 laps. Can't even get through a 20 minute session on a completely full tank, sputters after 15 minutes or so.

me too. worst was carousel at Road America, would get it at 15/16 full coming exiting at 100mph or so.

had it once on the street. accelerating off a 270 degree cloverleaf, just like cossie, at just over half a tank.

cossie1600 · 05-11-2012, 12:04 AM

If there isn't a fix by this winter and I still have the car, I am hoping to get in and see what I can find for solutions. We have 3-4 ideas in mind, but won't know what works best without going in there physically to spec every part out. I don't think it will happen, but it would be awesome if nissan comes up with a rev B and correct the cup or the tank.

I never tried to refill it with one or two gallon. It might work, but it was easier for me to wait for a complete tow truck than to take a risk to get two gallons only. It might work though and you are right the filler is on the right so in theory it could work.

wstar · 05-11-2012, 12:38 AM

The easy fix is rip out the dead weight of the tank and stick a fuel cell back there

05-10-2012, 01:01 PM	#93 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	Nismo has the same problem. It's just a design issue with the tank or pump, whichever way you like to put it. A lot of cars on the road has the same problem, EXCEPT A: Not many are this severe. I can hit fuel starve at 3/4 full tank on RE11, think about guys running slicks. B: I have never heard of people not be able to restart the car after, leaving you stranded like I was in my case. Remember the Z has a 18 gallons tank, to starve at 3/4 means that you basically run out of fuel at 14 gallons or so, which is scary to think about... You guys need to stop thinking like this was designed like a race car, it was built as a mass produced vehicles and they look for cost savings and space savings at the end of the day. The racing history has nothing to do with it and frankly none of the race cars share the same features as the street car short of the dash layout and the body shape. Lotus Elise has the same problem too, same with Corvette, but none are this severe. Last edited by cossie1600; 05-10-2012 at 01:04 PM.

05-10-2012, 01:29 PM	#94 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Well, I think the point is that while we know the tank design is faulty in hard right corners, there's a question of degree. Some of that's driving conditions and style, sure. But there might be some real variances that make the problem more dramatic for some people than others. We already know the fuel gauges on this car are totally unreliable, and since dots on the fuel gauge is what most people are reporting the fuel starve problem by, we have a data accuracy problem on knowing how severe this is. We know we've also had a couple reports of some baffle plate in the fuel tank coming loose and flopping around inside. There could be variances or failures in the pump / fuel cup assembly too. It wouldn't shock me if, in addition to the basic tank design problem, there are other compounding factors that vary car to car. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

05-10-2012, 05:51 PM	#97 (permalink)
Mt Tam I am A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: California Posts: 10,709 Drives: 370Z T/S/N 6MT & XKE Rep Power: 3843	If catastrophic fuel starvation occurs, is it possible to engage the clutch in order to save yourself? I assume the car locks up in gear and you careen off the track. __________________ "Does the carpet match the drapes? NO!!! I don't date bald women." Nissan Motorsports 34R Oil Cooler. Stillen CBE. Hotchkis Sport Sway Bars. KW Variant 3 Coilover System. Stillen Gen3 CAI. Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Stillen Brake Ducts. Carbotech™ XP10/XP8 Pads. Z1 Front Rotors. Z1 Stainless Brake Lines. Two degrees of camber

05-10-2012, 10:26 PM	#101 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	Sorry you got to experience this. When it happened to me a couple of years ago on the street we were able to refire it after adding just 1 gallon of fuel, I'm guessing because the fill neck is on the passenger side. On track with slicks I can get fuel starve after burning just 3.5 gallons, on 2.0 mile track that's about 9 laps. Can't even get through a 20 minute session on a completely full tank, sputters after 15 minutes or so. __________________ Hotchkis ARB \| Stillen CAI \| Art Pipes \| Berk CBE \| Stillen AP Racing Brakes \| AE Performance Oil Cooler \| BC Racing ER Coilovers \| Doran Control Arms

05-10-2012, 11:26 PM	#102 (permalink)
kensin0429 Base Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: palmsprings Posts: 244 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 16	I've had it with all.led off for about 10 extra mile >.< __________________ 10 40th AE Z

05-10-2012, 12:12 PM	#92 (permalink)
SeattleLion Base Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 226 Drives: '13 Mustang GT Prem. Rep Power: 234	This is all very interesting. There is no doubt that fuel starvation is an issue for the car. Like the oil overheating (not the same thing but similar in the design issues) it is something that a manufacturer who expects the car to be tracked should handle before making the car. There are "sporty" looking cars like the Eclipse that are not really meant to track. But since 1969 Z's have been on tracks. It's unbelievable that Nissan engineering was unaware of this problem. Nissan tracks prototypes extensively to shake out any design flaws. So how do we end up with cars that overheat oil, experience brake fade due to heat, and suffer fuel starvation under track conditions? I think the answer is that in their minds the Nissan engineers assumed that anyone who has track ambitions for a Z will buy the Nismo. I don't know if the Nismo has the fuel starvation issue (I bet it does), but it has always come with an oil cooler and better ventilation for the brakes. I agree that the problems above did not prevent me from buying and loving my car. It did cost me some money to get an oil cooler, better brake lines and fluid, and better brake pads. In my mind, at least, I can imagine the Nissan engineering team being beaten up by marketing who wanted to hit that under $40k price point. It's a neat trick to build a mid range sports car that can compete with cars costing twice as much. It just seems odd to me that now almost four years after the 370 was introduced, only the oil temp issue has been addressed.

05-10-2012, 07:52 PM	#99 (permalink)
AlphaSnacks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Windermere, FL Posts: 1,618 Drives: '13 XKR-S, '10 370Z Rep Power: 18	Has anyone every tried the ECU reset pedal trick to fix this, as opposed to filling the car up or towing it to a station? If it is a purely mechanical issue, then no the ECU reset will not work. But if it is an electrical issue where the car is being told there's no gas - resetting the ECU could solve it.

05-10-2012, 08:03 PM	#100 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	If it was electrical, my car wouldn't start on the first crank after I got to the gas station....

05-11-2012, 12:04 AM	#104 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	If there isn't a fix by this winter and I still have the car, I am hoping to get in and see what I can find for solutions. We have 3-4 ideas in mind, but won't know what works best without going in there physically to spec every part out. I don't think it will happen, but it would be awesome if nissan comes up with a rev B and correct the cup or the tank. I never tried to refill it with one or two gallon. It might work, but it was easier for me to wait for a complete tow truck than to take a risk to get two gallons only. It might work though and you are right the filler is on the right so in theory it could work.

05-11-2012, 12:38 AM	#105 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	The easy fix is rip out the dead weight of the tank and stick a fuel cell back there __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

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