Lots of wrecked Z's...

m4a1mustang · 12-28-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharmacist

indeed, an a-hole making a left turn is what destroyed my car a month ago. I agree with almost all you're saying. Except, that higher hp cars are still more difficult to handle than lower hp cars. Even at partial throttle, a car with a bigger engine will still be delivering more torque to the wheels than a car with a smaller engine assuming the same throttle position. More torque delivered to the wheels increases the chances of power oversteer. Especially with a car like a corvette or a viper that produces a lot of torque even at very low rpm.

More difficult to handle for an inexperienced driver, perhaps...

But to anyone that knows wtf they are doing there is no difference.

Red__Zed · 12-28-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharmacist

i disagree. it also means the rear of the car is prone to losing traction, especially under braking. i used to have a chrysler intrepid, and all the drivetrain (engine, gearbox, diff) was IN FRONT of the front wheels. brake a bit too hard and the back end would get light on its wheels. Occasionally that led to a bit of minor fishtailing under braking. Nothing the ABS didn't fix but it still did happen.

you can easily recovery by braking less. try making that same move in a mid-engine car, and the rear end won't step back in line...hell, even in a properly balanced front midship design, you might have some trouble getting the rear end back in place

m4a1mustang · 12-28-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

you can easily recovery by braking less. try making that same move in a mid-engine car, and the rear end won't step back in line...hell, even in a properly balanced front midship design, you might have some trouble getting the rear end back in place

Agreed.

b1adesofcha0s · 12-28-2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxik

I'm not going to be the one to say it, but lets face it, a lot of 370z's are being totaled as insurance fraud simply because the owners realize they rather own a 5.0

Pharmacist · 12-28-2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

You were going too fast for the conditions. I can get the back end to step out in my car on snow tires under braking if I am going too fast...

More rear weight makes the rear of the car want to overtake the front when you attempt to stop quickly... especially if turning. If you have more weight on the front, the car tends to track much straighter... Simple physics.

There's a reason why the older 911s were notorious for ridiculous amounts of oversteer... all that weight over the rear axle.

actually i'm talking about braking in a straight line. a lighter rear end is more prone to fishtailing under hard braking. yes in a corner the opposite is true, and the car will tend to understeer. but in a straight line, with the car diving under hard braking, with all the drivetrain weight on the front wheels, the rear wheels are very prone to losing grip. that's why many older pickup trucks used to come with ABS only on the rear axle.

Jeffblue · 12-28-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharmacist

indeed, an a-hole making a left turn is what destroyed my car a month ago. I agree with almost all you're saying. Except, that higher hp cars are still more difficult to handle than lower hp cars. Even at partial throttle, a car with a bigger engine will still be delivering more torque to the wheels than a car with a smaller engine assuming the same throttle position. More torque delivered to the wheels increases the chances of power oversteer. Especially with a car like a corvette or a viper that produces a lot of torque even at very low rpm.

what you are saying makes sense, but we are human and we can adapt. If you have to push your gas pedal down 3/4 of the way in a corolla to get it to move, you don't get in a viper and do the same thing. obviously if you give the same amount of gas in a higher hp/larger displacement car it will produce more power at a lower rpm. But as i said, we can adapt.

i just recently reflashed my 335, and now its probably got about 100 more lbft of torque at the wheels at 2500 rpm. So if i press the gas the same way i used to to gingerly get off the line, it's going to put down a lot more power. so i just give it less throttle. i have no problems driving it just as slow as i used to even with the added power. it really should be no problem to drive a fast car slowly, just don't put your foot down as much.

Pharmacist · 12-28-2011, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

More difficult to handle for an inexperienced driver, perhaps...

But to anyone that knows wtf they are doing there is no difference.

so if you had a viper srt 10 to drive year round, you'd just put snow tires and continue as usual?

Quote:

you can easily recovery by braking less. try making that same move in a mid-engine car, and the rear end won't step back in line...hell, even in a properly balanced front midship design, you might have some trouble getting the rear end back in place

never driven a mid engine car, but i drove a few front midship cars and actually i felt they were very stable under braking. And braking less is not always an option on the street. What if a guy cuts you off? Or a bus unexpectedly pulls out of the bus bay? Or a pedestrian decides to jaywalk across the street right in front of you?

Pharmacist · 12-28-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxik

I'm not going to be the one to say it, but lets face it, a lot of 370z's are being totaled as insurance fraud simply because the owners realize they rather own a 5.0

actually i thought most of those who got the mustang traded their cars in.

m4a1mustang · 12-28-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharmacist

actually i'm talking about braking in a straight line. a lighter rear end is more prone to fishtailing under hard braking. yes in a corner the opposite is true, and the car will tend to understeer. but in a straight line, with the car diving under hard braking, with all the drivetrain weight on the front wheels, the rear wheels are very prone to losing grip. that's why many older pickup trucks used to come with ABS only on the rear axle.

It's also easy to regain traction under braking in a car with a lot of weight on the front axle by letting off the brake like Red__Zed mentioned. It's very easy to get it under control. And yes while the rear end might feel like it's sliding around back there, all of the cars mass is at the front and is most likely going to keep a fairly straight track... and if it doesn't it's easy enough to correct.

Now if you try to stop all of that mass on the *** end of a 911 from coming around under hard braking... good luck.

cossie1600 · 12-28-2011, 12:06 PM

The car has ABS/EBD. How the f do you lose your backend braking in a straight line unless you are in the snow or your car is busted. I mean you might hit ice mode and lose all your braking, but very seldom does the car lose the backend and swing it around.

m4a1mustang · 12-28-2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharmacist

so if you had a viper srt 10 to drive year round, you'd just put snow tires and continue as usual?

never driven a mid engine car, but i drove a few front midship cars and actually i felt they were very stable under braking. And braking less is not always an option on the street. What if a guy cuts you off? Or a bus unexpectedly pulls out of the bus bay? Or a pedestrian decides to jaywalk across the street right in front of you?

If I had an SRT-10 Viper I'd obviously have some other cars... but yes, if you said, "Steve... the ONLY car you can drive this winter is an SRT-10" I would slap Blizzaks on it and be fine. Obviously I wouldn't be able to drive in deep snow, but on freshly plowed, snow-packed roads or very light accumulations I would be 100% fine.

m4a1mustang · 12-28-2011, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

The car has ABS/EBD. How the f do you lose your backend braking in a straight line unless you are in the snow or your car is busted. I mean you might hit ice mode and lose all your braking, but very seldom does the car lose the backend and swing it around.

Shhhh this is an anti-physics discussion based on theory and no real-world experience.

Pharmacist · 12-28-2011, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffblue

what you are saying makes sense, but we are human and we can adapt. If you have to push your gas pedal down 3/4 of the way in a corolla to get it to move, you don't get in a viper and do the same thing. obviously if you give the same amount of gas in a higher hp/larger displacement car it will produce more power at a lower rpm. But as i said, we can adapt.

i just recently reflashed my 335, and now its probably got about 100 more lbft of torque at the wheels at 2500 rpm. So if i press the gas the same way i used to to gingerly get off the line, it's going to put down a lot more power. so i just give it less throttle. i have no problems driving it just as slow as i used to even with the added power. it really should be no problem to drive a fast car slowly, just don't put your foot down as much.

true, except you're wrong in one thing. Even if you go 100% full throttle in a corolla, you're still delivering less power and torque to the wheel than the viper engine does to its wheels even at idle at 0% throttle

b1adesofcha0s · 12-28-2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Shhhh this is an anti-physics discussion based on theory and no real-world experience.

I think we need to consult the leading expert in theoretical physics.....

( Click to show/hide )

FL 4Motion · 12-28-2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

If I had an SRT-10 Viper I'd obviously have some other cars... but yes, if you said, "Steve... the ONLY car you can drive this winter is an SRT-10" I would slap Blizzaks on it and be fine. Obviously I wouldn't be able to drive in deep snow, but on freshly plowed, snow-packed roads or very light accumulations I would be 100% fine.

I love your self confidence, it's very endearing.

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12-28-2011, 12:06 PM	#55 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 30	The car has ABS/EBD. How the f do you lose your backend braking in a straight line unless you are in the snow or your car is busted. I mean you might hit ice mode and lose all your braking, but very seldom does the car lose the backend and swing it around.