What do the new CAFE standards mean for the Z?

FlashBazbo · 05-21-2009, 05:06 PM

Back on topic, then . . . IF they decide to call it a Z, I think the new CAFE gives us an Altima Coupe with altered styling, the Z nameplate, front wheel drive, and a turbo four. (Would NISSAN ever put the Z label on a 4-cyl front-drive car? I don't really think so.) It might be the return of the 240SX.

2bits · 05-21-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashBazbo

You forget basic history (or maybe you're too young to have lived it). When current CAFE standards were first introduced, they DID eliminate cars like the Viper, Z06, GT-R, etc. No legal high performance car survived in the U.S. They killed Challenger, Barracuda, Z-28, Mustang (the horrid Mustang II was a CAFE special), Road Runner, GTO, Marauder, Cougar -- those very few performance cars that survived did so only by losing the performance. Raising the CAFE took us through a dark automotive age and it took over twenty years for technology to catch up and give us performance cars on the same level as we had before. During those dark years from the mid-70's, a 200-hp Corvette was considered a BIG deal just two years after they offered several Vette engines of over 400 hp.

It is utterly unrealistic to think moving to a 39 mpg CAFE won't have a radical impact on the offerings of the industry. Just within the last six months, the CAFE zealots at EPA and NHTSA have published documents saying that a 36 mpg standard was technologically infeasible by 2016. If those in government who want it most think it won't work . . . .

I haven't forgotten history. We've had CAFE standards increase over the past 35 years. You choose to focus on the initial shock in the 70's, then extrapolate out that horror to today and well beyond. You ignore the fact that today WE DO HAVE the cars I cited despite the highest CAFE standards ever. You've just flat out lost your perspective.

My original point remains. Yes, things will advance and change as they always have. The Z will ever evolve, and Nissan will pump up mileage on the commodity models to reach the required average. Big deal. Can we stop the hyperbole now?

ChrisSlicks · 05-21-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2bits

I haven't forgotten history. We've had CAFE standards increase over the past 35 years. You choose to focus on the initial shock in the 70's, then extrapolate out that horror to today and well beyond. You ignore the fact that today WE DO HAVE the cars I cited despite the highest CAFE standards ever. You've just flat out lost your perspective.

My original point remains. Yes, things will advance and change as they always have. The Z will ever evolve, and Nissan will pump up mileage on the commodity models to reach the required average. Big deal. Can we stop the hyperbole now?

Agreed. Nissan sells 1 million cars a year (well they used to) in which to make their average. They can afford to have a few cars under the average if they are low volume. The high volume economy cars will bring the average up.

jakoye · 05-21-2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2bits

I haven't forgotten history. We've had CAFE standards increase over the past 35 years. You choose to focus on the initial shock in the 70's, then extrapolate out that horror to today and well beyond. You ignore the fact that today WE DO HAVE the cars I cited despite the highest CAFE standards ever. You've just flat out lost your perspective.

My original point remains. Yes, things will advance and change as they always have. The Z will ever evolve, and Nissan will pump up mileage on the commodity models to reach the required average. Big deal. Can we stop the hyperbole now?

Except... CAFE standards haven't risen for passenger cars since 1990, when they reached their present level of 27.5.

Having that raised to 39 mpg in 7 years... that's pretty significant when it hasn't risen in nearly 20 years.

I'd say being worried that a 40% increase in the CAFE standards in the next 7 years might adversely affect the Z is not hyperbole at all.

antennahead · 05-21-2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly yellow

What Washington forgets is the fact that Americans love cars. A Toyota Prius doesn't exactly stir the emotions like a Z. The only way for this plan to work and to have people spend more money on uninspiring and unsafe cars that can't get out of their own way is to have gas prices reach astronomical rates where a middle class person can no longer afford to drive something that doesn't get 50 mpg. That's where cap and trade comes into play. If you ennact that plan then gas and all forms of carbon based energy will skyrocket.

Exactly, and if you think about America's love affair with the automobile, and the popularity of Detroit in the 50's and 60's, you can see why they are in trouble now......... they moved away from cars that stir the soul!

John

2bits · 05-22-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakoye

Except... CAFE standards haven't risen for passenger cars since 1990, when they reached their present level of 27.5.

Having that raised to 39 mpg in 7 years... that's pretty significant when it hasn't risen in nearly 20 years.

I'd say being worried that a 40% increase in the CAFE standards in the next 7 years might adversely affect the Z is not hyperbole at all.

Your first point is good, but it doesn't change mine either. Lol, how important is the Z to reaching that 39 mpg avg considering it's production #'s and % volume for Nissan? The commodity models will drive the mpg average as they always have.

Your second point is not so good. Marquee models with their accompanying lower mpg are a reality for most manufactures because they don't sell that many of them. If Nissan sold 50k+ Z's, you'd be right. But they don't. Hyperbole and hysteria in this thread? Yes.

jakoye · 05-22-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2bits

Your first point is good, but it doesn't change mine either. Lol, how important is the Z to reaching that 39 mpg avg considering it's production #'s and % volume for Nissan? The commodity models will drive the mpg average as they always have.

Your second point is not so good. Marquee models with their accompanying lower mpg are a reality for most manufactures because they don't sell that many of them. If Nissan sold 50k+ Z's, you'd be right. But they don't. Hyperbole and hysteria in this thread? Yes.

We will agree to disagree then.

I think the abrupt increases in the MPG standards *will* affect the Z's design. Sure, it's not a huge seller or a huge percentage of Nissan's US sales, but having a car that is currently 16 or 17 MPG under the standard that will be law in 7 short years will call for some fairly significant engineering.

And besides, with a 39 mpg standard, Nissan is gonna have to sell a good number of cars that EXCEED that level in order to make up for the Z and all its other low MPG cars. How many Nissan models get more than 39 mpg? I can't think of any.

The Z may be especially vulnerable simply because Nissan is a smaller car company that may not have the capital to so radically re-engineer their product line. The easiest way for them to meet the standards will be to eliminate low-mileage cars like the Z from their lineup entirely.

It may be pessimistic, but this is truly the way I see it going down.

>135I · 05-22-2009, 05:43 PM

I don't know maybe Nissan can do something like Chevy and a couple other car manufactures and have an engine that cuts cyclenders on the highway.

FlashBazbo · 05-22-2009, 08:05 PM

There are actually only two things we know for sure --

1. Unless they tax us into oblivion (which has been seriously proposed), our current Zs are great and will remain great. How many of us would still drive them with a punitive tax on fuel (up to $4 additional dollars of tax per gallon has been proposed by congressional Democrats)?

2. We will certainly be able to read about the 2016 generation of Zs in the press. Europe and Asia won't be following our lead. And, as in the dark days, they will still get all the cool cars and motorcycles -- whether we do, or not. (And, again, they'll be laughing at us for our grand gesture.)

fly yellow · 05-23-2009, 03:11 PM

Actually if Nissan decides to continue the Z and just not offer it here because of our crazy laws then you may just see the baddest Z ever built. It's just too bad that you will have to live in China to drive it. Of course there is always the possibility that China may call our debt that we owe them and we all might be living in China right now without even knowing it.

carguyg35 · 05-30-2009, 03:20 PM

One thing I wanted to add to this old discussion is a loophole in that 35.5 CAFE standard. And that would be the use of E85. As of now the automakers could simply convert the engines to run on E85 and that gives them a huge CAFE rating boost. So much so that every automakers would reach the new goal. Plus it is pretty easy to convert the engines to E85. Essentially install bigger fuel injectors and use more durable materials that come in contact with the E85 fuel as it is corrosive. This is a loophole that corn states can love.

theDreamer · 05-30-2009, 04:53 PM

I do not think Nissan and the Z will go away (unless sales fall off). Nissan does not have many hybrids yet and could easily throw that into the mix on a few cars and boost the CAFE rating up. Plus I could see them dropping a car or two and creating a tighter line up.

dad · 05-30-2009, 07:11 PM

There will always be youth! There for, there will always be horse power and speed!

MikeGTO · 06-01-2009, 05:43 PM

CAFE was first passed in 1975 and didnt actually kick in until 1978.
Corporate Average Fuel Economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can't blame it (directly) for the death of any of the classic muscle/sport cars you mentioned. It just piled some extra dirt on top of their corpses.

What killed the musclecars was a combination of higher gas prices, high insurance, the changeover to unleaded gas, and the increasing amount of emission controls. But none of those are CAFE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashBazbo

You forget basic history (or maybe you're too young to have lived it). When current CAFE standards were first introduced, they DID eliminate cars like the Viper, Z06, GT-R, etc. No legal high performance car survived in the U.S. They killed Challenger, Barracuda, Z-28, Mustang (the horrid Mustang II was a CAFE special), Road Runner, GTO, Marauder, Cougar -- those very few performance cars that survived did so only by losing the performance. Raising the CAFE took us through a dark automotive age and it took over twenty years for technology to catch up and give us performance cars on the same level as we had before. During those dark years from the mid-70's, a 200-hp Corvette was considered a BIG deal just two years after they offered several Vette engines of over 400 hp.

FlashBazbo · 09-09-2009, 04:29 PM

Update: It appears that there's CAFE and then . . . there's NEW CAFE!! (This could be good news or bad news, depending on how politically astute Nissan is at the time and/or how much you really wanted fuel economy to improve.)

Under the NEW CAFE, trucks and cars will receive individual testing regimen (NOT standardized) which make allowances for the intended use of the vehicle. Trucks and luxury cars will be given certain "allowances." The testing regimen will be NEGOTIATED by the manufacturer and will be different than the window sticker MPG listings. And the NEW CAFE regimen will be run without air conditioning, without temperature variances, using extremely gradual acceleration. In short, it will have NOTHING to do with real-world MPG or even window-sticker MPG.

The word I heard from one of the administrators was, "It is entirely possible that today's 370Z could be rated at 35 mpg for NEW CAFE purposes. We fully expect that a large car or pickup rated at 26 real-world highway mpg will be negotiated into a 35 mpg NEW CAFE rating."

In other words, NEW CAFE isn't as much about engineering as it is about lobbying. If you really care about fuel economy, it's an illusion. Just a political game.

05-22-2009, 05:43 PM	#53 (permalink)
>135I Enthusiast Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Radcliff, KY Age: 42 Posts: 409 Drives: 2003 Cobra Rep Power: 16	I don't know maybe Nissan can do something like Chevy and a couple other car manufactures and have an engine that cuts cyclenders on the highway. __________________ I will miss my Z. I hope she goes to a good home.

05-30-2009, 04:53 PM	#57 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4210	I do not think Nissan and the Z will go away (unless sales fall off). Nissan does not have many hybrids yet and could easily throw that into the mix on a few cars and boost the CAFE rating up. Plus I could see them dropping a car or two and creating a tighter line up. __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

05-30-2009, 07:11 PM	#58 (permalink)
dad Grand Prix of Endurance Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tennessee Posts: 3,476 Drives: Mulsanne Straight Rep Power: 26	There will always be youth! There for, there will always be horse power and speed! __________________ We can do without any article of luxury we have never had; but once obtained, it is not in human nature to surrender it voluntary.

05-21-2009, 05:06 PM	#46 (permalink)
FlashBazbo Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 97 Drives: '09 370Z T-SP-7AT Rep Power: 0	Back on topic, then . . . IF they decide to call it a Z, I think the new CAFE gives us an Altima Coupe with altered styling, the Z nameplate, front wheel drive, and a turbo four. (Would NISSAN ever put the Z label on a 4-cyl front-drive car? I don't really think so.) It might be the return of the 240SX.

05-22-2009, 08:05 PM	#54 (permalink)
FlashBazbo Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 97 Drives: '09 370Z T-SP-7AT Rep Power: 0	There are actually only two things we know for sure -- 1. Unless they tax us into oblivion (which has been seriously proposed), our current Zs are great and will remain great. How many of us would still drive them with a punitive tax on fuel (up to $4 additional dollars of tax per gallon has been proposed by congressional Democrats)? 2. We will certainly be able to read about the 2016 generation of Zs in the press. Europe and Asia won't be following our lead. And, as in the dark days, they will still get all the cool cars and motorcycles -- whether we do, or not. (And, again, they'll be laughing at us for our grand gesture.)

05-23-2009, 03:11 PM	#55 (permalink)
fly yellow Enthusiast Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 455 Drives: 09 yellow 370z Rep Power: 265	Actually if Nissan decides to continue the Z and just not offer it here because of our crazy laws then you may just see the baddest Z ever built. It's just too bad that you will have to live in China to drive it. Of course there is always the possibility that China may call our debt that we owe them and we all might be living in China right now without even knowing it.

05-30-2009, 03:20 PM	#56 (permalink)
carguyg35 Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Fort Drum, NY Posts: 32 Drives: golf cart Rep Power: 16	One thing I wanted to add to this old discussion is a loophole in that 35.5 CAFE standard. And that would be the use of E85. As of now the automakers could simply convert the engines to run on E85 and that gives them a huge CAFE rating boost. So much so that every automakers would reach the new goal. Plus it is pretty easy to convert the engines to E85. Essentially install bigger fuel injectors and use more durable materials that come in contact with the E85 fuel as it is corrosive. This is a loophole that corn states can love.

09-09-2009, 04:29 PM	#60 (permalink)
FlashBazbo Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 97 Drives: '09 370Z T-SP-7AT Rep Power: 0	Update: It appears that there's CAFE and then . . . there's NEW CAFE!! (This could be good news or bad news, depending on how politically astute Nissan is at the time and/or how much you really wanted fuel economy to improve.) Under the NEW CAFE, trucks and cars will receive individual testing regimen (NOT standardized) which make allowances for the intended use of the vehicle. Trucks and luxury cars will be given certain "allowances." The testing regimen will be NEGOTIATED by the manufacturer and will be different than the window sticker MPG listings. And the NEW CAFE regimen will be run without air conditioning, without temperature variances, using extremely gradual acceleration. In short, it will have NOTHING to do with real-world MPG or even window-sticker MPG. The word I heard from one of the administrators was, "It is entirely possible that today's 370Z could be rated at 35 mpg for NEW CAFE purposes. We fully expect that a large car or pickup rated at 26 real-world highway mpg will be negotiated into a 35 mpg NEW CAFE rating." In other words, NEW CAFE isn't as much about engineering as it is about lobbying. If you really care about fuel economy, it's an illusion. Just a political game.