Car Buying Tips

SeattleLion · 11-10-2011, 12:56 PM

There have been a lot of threads detailing bad buying and service experience with Nissan dealers. It makes sense to consider what we can do to fight back.

Why do dealers employ shady practices?
This is the most interesting question. In virtually every other industry retailers have worked to clean up their acts and have tried to consitently put the customer first. Why don't car dealers?

The answer is actually pretty simple. A car dealer has at least two years to "repair" damage sales caused since most people don't buy cars that often. That alone doesn't explain it. The other factors include:

Car manufacturers are generally unwilling to act on customer complaints. Nissan has a complaint line, but in most cases they just say "sorry, that is a dealer issue". Try to go up the food chain at Nissan. You can't. Is it Japanese culture? I don't know, but I had a similar problem with Toyota. Surprisingly, American car companies are a bit easier to reach.
Car salesmen operate on a quota system. Most of their pay is sales commission. If they don't sell a car, they don't make money. In addition, many dealerships will fire a salesman that doesn't sell a minimum number of cars each month. To a car salesman, life depends on selling no matter what they have to do.
Dealerships improve their profit margin on things most customers don't even understand. Virtually every bank that provides auto loans through dealers allows the dealer to "mark up" loans; that is, the dealer can increase the interest percentage and receive additional money from the bank. For example, the bank offers the dealer a 5% loan on a car you want to buy. The "finance manager" tells the salesman to "try for 8%". The salesman gives you a story about problems with your credit and says that his manager went to bat for you and got you a real deal on financing; only 8%. The bank and the dealer split the extra 3% you pay.

Another scam is the "extended warranty". These items carry hefty markups and can add hundreds of dollars to the profit on your sale. Generally they are a bad deal.
Customer loyalty costs money. Remember, car dealers are businesses. They calculate how much they stand to make on future sales if you leave happy. If the cost to their bottom line to make a deal with you is less than how much they stand to make later, then they will stop worrying about your future business and just try to get you to drive out with a car.
"Invoice" price for a car is not really what the dealer is paying. Car companies know that invoice prices are published widely on the web. They are not dumb. Yes, the invoice price is real, but then there are additional discounts: advertising, early purchase, volume, etc.

The most important thing to remember is that the car dealership is a business. It isn't your friend. If the salseman, service manager, or dealer owner can convince you that he is your friend, that works very well. Your guard is down. Let's take a look at how this plays out.

First of all, the manufacturer and dealer want you to fall in love with the car. We know that works. We're here. When you are in love you don't think straight. You just want the object of that love; in this case a nice shiny Z. That's why the first thing a car salesman will do is "take your temperature" -- see how far gone you are for the car. Next, he will try to get you to fall head over heels for the car. Beautiful brochures, nice test drive, lots of conversation about how the really cool people love Z's. Sound familiar?

At the same time a good salesman will try to make you his friend. He wants you to believe he is on your side. He reinforces this by taking your offer to "his manager". In the manager's office you can see him arguing on your behalf. If you think that is what is really happening, you are sunk. In fact, the sales manager is checking the auction price for your trade, asking the salesman if he thinks you will go for "add on's", and is pulling some credit reports to get an idea on financing.

About financing. Most banks have rules that allow a dealer to place a loan without even calling the bank. It works this way: the dealer has a chart of credit scores; for example 700-780 and then a base interest rate, say 4%. The manager checks your score with the bank's favorite credit bureau and sees you can get a 4% loan. He tells the salesman to offer a loan at 7%.

The salesman comes back from the managers office with a big smile and says that you can get the car for only $400 a month. Note that the conversation has moved from the actual price to your finance payment. Apparently lots of people never go any further. They think that they can afford $400 a month and close the deal right there. They never even ask what the term of the loan is or how much they are paying in interest.

Next stop is the finance manager's office. This is where the dealer can make the big bucks. Here you are talked into warranties, upholstery treatments, rust proofing, etc. If the fiance manager senses that you are really far gone for the car, he or she will explain that the loan needs to be confirmed by the bank and will type away on the computer. With a sad face, she tells you that the bank is concerned about your loan. "They are worried that with this payment you will not be able to afford necessary maintenance or repairs. But, if you sign up for prepaid maintenance and an extended warranty, they will go ahead with the loan. This will cost an extrea $75 a month. For $475 a month the car can be yours. Many people just say yes, sign the papers, and drive away. They don't even know how much the car really cost.

There are many variations to this story, but they all boil down to a few basic sales techniques:

Get you to fall in love with the car so that the most important thing is to get it now.
Divert your attention from the real cost and focus you on the monthly payment.
Convince you that you need addtional extra-cost options to secure your loan.

Can you beat this? Yes you can. It isn't hard but requires a much more hard nosed approach to car buying.

Make sure you are ready to buy only if the deal makes good business sense to you.
Do homework: Visit a bank or two and try to get a pre-approved car loan. Even if you get turned down, the banks will probably advise you on why and suggest what kind of loan you can get.
Make a list in advance of the options you want and the exact model you want to purchase. You can do all your research online.
If you take a test drive (avoid one if at all possible -- try to test drive a friend's instead), have a list of what you want to learn. Write that down. Do not let yourself get sucked into the "I have to have this car" mentality. If you feel that happening (I sure do!), then thank the salesman and say you will be back. You need to think about it. Of course, you really want to cool off so you can drive a better bargain.
Only talk about the full price of the car. Never get sucked into the "monthly payment" mode of discussion. In fact, refuse to discuss financing at all until you reach agreement on the net cost of the car. The net cost is the price the dealer says you have to pay less any trade in. Remember, as you negotiate it doesn't matter at all which prices goes down, just the net amount. So if the dealer says you have to pay full sticker, but he will add $1000 to your trade in, then your net price has gone down $1000. Don't focus on just the car's price or your trade in.The only number that counts is the car's price minus the trade. That is your real price.
Negotiate the financing. If you know you can do better (or even think you can), turn down the deal unless you get a better rate. This comes back to net cost to you. Calculate that by asking the salesman to tell you the total cost of financing for the loan he is proposing. He won't want to do it. It's a big number. But walk away if he won't. Add that cost to the price of the car. That is what you are really paying! Last, ask what the monthly payment will be.

If the monthly payment is low, ask what it will be if you take a shorter loan. Usually the salesman will quote you a 72 month loan payment (it's the lowest). Ask what a 60-month loan will cost; total finance cost and monthly payment.
In the finance manager's office you need to hang tough. If you really want any extras like an extended warranty, negotiate these with the salesman. He won't want to. He will say that the finance manager will "discuss" that with you. Refuse. Tell him that you want to know the total cost of the car before you go to the finance manager. The finance manager is also a salesman and frequently brings in more profit than the car sale.
Be reasonable. While you are trying to make the best deal you can, remember that the dealer needs to make money too. Your goal should be to make a fair deal. A deal that looks too good to be true probably is.

This is what I have learned after over 40 years of car buying. It really works. I will say that I paid a fair price for my Z. I probably could have saved another hundred or two by going to a dealer I liked less. But I give points (and dollars) to a dealer that treats me fairly.

That brings me to the last point. Trust your instinct. If something bothers you about a dealer, walk away. If you feel positive, then follow the steps above, make the best deal you can, and feel good about your new car.

All this holds true about used cars too. Though in that sort of deal you really need an independent inspection before you lay down a deposit. In a used car deal you need to know what you are buying. You should never rely on the dealer's statements, even if they are in writing. Remember, if the dealer lies, you will have to go to court. That costs money and time. Better to be sure before you buy.

kenchan · 11-10-2011, 01:09 PM

i usually have a pleasant experience buying cars... i think you either have it in you or you dont, the car buying techniques and a business mind. but after buying more than 20new cars i think anyone would have it by then.

and people have it easier these days due to internet.

somatic · 11-10-2011, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleLion

There have been a lot of threads detailing bad buying and service experience with Nissan dealers. It makes sense to consider what we can do to fight back.

Why do dealers employ shady practices?
This is the most interesting question. In virtually every other industry retailers have worked to clean up their acts and have tried to consitently put the customer first. Why don't car dealers?

The answer is actually pretty simple. A car dealer has at least two years to "repair" damage sales caused since most people don't buy cars that often. That alone doesn't explain it. The other factors include:

Car manufacturers are generally unwilling to act on customer complaints. Nissan has a complaint line, but in most cases they just say "sorry, that is a dealer issue". Try to go up the food chain at Nissan. You can't. Is it Japanese culture? I don't know, but I had a similar problem with Toyota. Surprisingly, American car companies are a bit easier to reach.
In America, car companies do not own the dealerships. Therefore, they have no hiring/firing power
Car salesmen operate on a quota system. Most of their pay is sales commission. If they don't sell a car, they don't make money. In addition, many dealerships will fire a salesman that doesn't sell a minimum number of cars each month. To a car salesman, life depends on selling no matter what they have to do. True
Dealerships improve their profit margin on things most customers don't even understand. Virtually every bank that provides auto loans through dealers allows the dealer to "mark up" loans; that is, the dealer can increase the interest percentage and receive additional money from the bank. For example, the bank offers the dealer a 5% loan on a car you want to buy. The "finance manager" tells the salesman to "try for 8%". The salesman gives you a story about problems with your credit and says that his manager went to bat for you and got you a real deal on financing; only 8%. The bank and the dealer split the extra 3% you pay. True

Another scam is the "extended warranty". These items carry hefty markups and can add hundreds of dollars to the profit on your sale. Generally they are a bad deal. Depends on how much you paid. Things like tire assure are awesome. At cost, the tires for a sport packacke 370Z are roughly $380 (stock ones). I had ablowout the other night, and because of tire assure I paid nothing to get it replaced, mount and balanced. Tire assure stickers for around $500, verses the almost $400 a tire.
Customer loyalty costs money. Remember, car dealers are businesses. They calculate how much they stand to make on future sales if you leave happy. If the cost to their bottom line to make a deal with you is less than how much they stand to make later, then they will stop worrying about your future business and just try to get you to drive out with a car. There is no calculated system. Its basically all guessing lol
"Invoice" price for a car is not really what the dealer is paying. Car companies know that invoice prices are published widely on the web. They are not dumb. Yes, the invoice price is real, but then there are additional discounts: advertising, early purchase, volume, etc. The thing is thats never reflected in the salespersons pay, so they usually dont even tell the salesperson. And believe it or not most salespeople arent privy to those secret incentives, most dont even get to see the invoice.

The most important thing to remember is that the car dealership is a business. It isn't your friend. If the salseman, service manager, or dealer owner can convince you that he is your friend, that works very well. Your guard is down. Let's take a look at how this plays out.

First of all, the manufacturer and dealer want you to fall in love with the car. We know that works. We're here. When you are in love you don't think straight. You just want the object of that love; in this case a nice shiny Z. That's why the first thing a car salesman will do is "take your temperature" -- see how far gone you are for the car. Next, he will try to get you to fall head over heels for the car. Beautiful brochures, nice test drive, lots of conversation about how the really cool people love Z's. Sound familiar?
Of course, you're spending tens of thousands of dollars on something, it should be an emotional experience.

At the same time a good salesman will try to make you his friend. He wants you to believe he is on your side. He reinforces this by taking your offer to "his manager". In the manager's office you can see him arguing on your behalf. If you think that is what is really happening, you are sunk. In fact, the sales manager is checking the auction price for your trade, asking the salesman if he thinks you will go for "add on's", and is pulling some credit reports to get an idea on financing.
Actually, the managers usually ARE fighting with the salesperson. There are many times when I wen to the desk and said "they want this price, and they only take this" and the manager said "show them this anyway". EVERY MANAGER IS DIFFERENT
About financing. Most banks have rules that allow a dealer to place a loan without even calling the bank. It works this way: the dealer has a chart of credit scores; for example 700-780 and then a base interest rate, say 4%. The manager checks your score with the bank's favorite credit bureau and sees you can get a 4% loan. He tells the salesman to offer a loan at 7%.
TRUE

The salesman comes back from the managers office with a big smile and says that you can get the car for only $400 a month. Note that the conversation has moved from the actual price to your finance payment. Apparently lots of people never go any further. They think that they can afford $400 a month and close the deal right there. They never even ask what the term of the loan is or how much they are paying in interest. The thing is, the most important part of a car deal is payment. If you tell me through out the car deal youll only pay invocie, but then I show you at invoice the payments still $50 more a month than you want to pay, you just wasted your time. Plus, if a dealer knows they have to reach a certain price, they can overallow on your trade. The thing is, though, they usually have to have the sales directors permission, and if its a big overallowance they may even have to get the GM involved.

Next stop is the finance manager's office. This is where the dealer can make the big bucks. Here you are talked into warranties, upholstery treatments, rust proofing, etc. If the fiance manager senses that you are really far gone for the car, he or she will explain that the loan needs to be confirmed by the bank and will type away on the computer. With a sad face, she tells you that the bank is concerned about your loan. "They are worried that with this payment you will not be able to afford necessary maintenance or repairs. But, if you sign up for prepaid maintenance and an extended warranty, they will go ahead with the loan. This will cost an extrea $75 a month. For $475 a month the car can be yours. Many people just say yes, sign the papers, and drive away. They don't even know how much the car really cost. Most dealerships dont do this anymore because they can get sued.

[*]Be reasonable. While you are trying to make the best deal you can, remember that the dealer needs to make money too. Your goal should be to make a fair deal. A deal that looks too good to be true probably is.[/LIST]This is what I have learned after over 40 years of car buying. It really works. I will say that I paid a fair price for my Z. I probably could have saved another hundred or two by going to a dealer I liked less. But I give points (and dollars) to a dealer that treats me fairly.
We appreciate the compassion

That brings me to the last point. Trust your instinct. If something bothers you about a dealer, walk away. If you feel positive, then follow the steps above, make the best deal you can, and feel good about your new car. Good advice

All this holds true about used cars too. Though in that sort of deal you really need an independent inspection before you lay down a deposit. In a used car deal you need to know what you are buying. You should never rely on the dealer's statements, even if they are in writing. Remember, if the dealer lies, you will have to go to court. That costs money and time. Better to be sure before you buy. TRUE

Put some notes in there

somatic · 11-10-2011, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenchan

i usually have a pleasant experience buying cars... i think you either have it in you or you dont, the car buying techniques and a business mind. but after buying more than 20new cars i think anyone would have it by then.

and people have it easier these days due to internet.

Dont forget, you may have bought 20 cars over the course of your life, but a salesman does it every day. Never think you know more than they do, it could trap you

kenchan · 11-10-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somatic

Dont forget, you may have bought 20 cars over the course of your life, but a salesman does it every day. Never think you know more than they do, it could trap you

indeed. i have bigger things to worry about like if im going to add cheeze in my charburger or keep the calories lower and put the cheeze just on my fries...or chilly (sp?) shall i get the mid or the small...

after the purchase to celebrate.

11Thumper · 11-10-2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somatic

Dont forget, you may have bought 20 cars over the course of your life, but a salesman does it every day. Never think you know more than they do, it could trap you

That's why prostitutes used to be called "Sausage Wallets"

Kenchan probably already knew that though...

(I kid, I kid...)

daleks · 11-10-2011, 02:46 PM

IMHO, it's more about leveling the information imbalance. Only at that point can you have a direct negotiation. That said, prior to going to a dealership you should do the following:

1. Get your credit score(s).
2. Get pre approved for an auto loan at a local bank or credit union.
3. Get the invoice price of the car you're interested in from Yahoo! Autos or KBB. At Yahoo! and Cars.com you can even price out the full car with options.
4. Get the manufacturer's incentives for your area. This is easy as going to the manufacturer's website and typing in your zip code.
5. Get the list of vehicles on the lot at the dealership. You can do this by going to their website. It's not always complete, but it will generally let you know if you are able to target something on-site.

Once you do that there are few if any points of leverage the dealership can use. Also, one primary part of negotiation is being willing and even comfortable with making the other person uncomfortable. You also have to deflect the salesperson from doing that to you.

SeattleLion · 11-10-2011, 04:48 PM

One thing I learned when buying my Z was that different banks use different credit bureaus. The dealers know this and that's why they check all three. Your credit score can be dramatically different at different credit bureaus.

SeattleLion · 11-10-2011, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somatic

Put some notes in there

Thanks for the comments. Your comment about tire assure (a form of warranty) makes sense to me too. I didn't get that option. If you like the idea of an extended warranty, I get one for $15 a month from Geico. Their deal is that if you select that option in the first 12 months of a new car, you are good to go for 7 years or 100,000 miles. It covers all mechanical failures with a $250 deductable. That's what I do.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I don't pay any attention to the selling dealer's service department. I can take my warranty work to any Nissan dealer, so if the sales dealership turns out to have a poor service department, I can go somewhere else. I have to say that my selling dealer has a great (so far) service department. It's one of the oldest Nissan dealers (Datsun in the old days) in the U.S. under the same ownership (family). Some dealers claim to have been there for 40 or 50 years. Well, they have, but the dealership changed owners every few years. It's not how long the dealer has been there, but how long it has been owned by the same people.

somatic · 11-10-2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleLion

Some dealers claim to have been there for 40 or 50 years. Well, they have, but the dealership changed owners every few years. It's not how long the dealer has been there, but how long it has been owned by the same people.

you sir are correct lol

LakeShow · 11-10-2011, 06:31 PM

Nice write up.

LT419 · 11-10-2011, 09:01 PM

When I bought mine, I went with the "brute force" method. Sat my *** down and wouldn't budge until I got $3k off the list price six hours later.

nmjaxx9 · 11-10-2011, 09:40 PM

hope your rear end wasn't sore after that

sonic370 · 11-10-2011, 09:40 PM

You make some very solid points. Dealerships sometimes get a bad rap on here. deserved or not. to me it just boils down to do your homework. i don't think its as bad now as it once was. due to the economy. where they try to get you as you said is in finance department with all the add ons and extra interest rates.

SkyZ · 11-11-2011, 05:48 AM

For me the experience is a little different yet it boils down to the same doing your homework. I usually test drive multiple different cars in a day travel dealerships for the sole purpose of test driving and experiencing cars. This is when I make mental notes about the car and its behaviors. Then when I finally settle on a car say the Z, I do a lot of research on what invoice is, what I want to pay for the car and simply refuse unless I get a certain price or certain rate. There isn't much science to it. Just knowing what you want and at what price you are willing to pay for it.

11-10-2011, 12:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
SeattleLion Base Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 226 Drives: '13 Mustang GT Prem. Rep Power: 234	Car Buying Tips There have been a lot of threads detailing bad buying and service experience with Nissan dealers. It makes sense to consider what we can do to fight back. Why do dealers employ shady practices? This is the most interesting question. In virtually every other industry retailers have worked to clean up their acts and have tried to consitently put the customer first. Why don't car dealers? The answer is actually pretty simple. A car dealer has at least two years to "repair" damage sales caused since most people don't buy cars that often. That alone doesn't explain it. The other factors include: Car manufacturers are generally unwilling to act on customer complaints. Nissan has a complaint line, but in most cases they just say "sorry, that is a dealer issue". Try to go up the food chain at Nissan. You can't. Is it Japanese culture? I don't know, but I had a similar problem with Toyota. Surprisingly, American car companies are a bit easier to reach. Car salesmen operate on a quota system. Most of their pay is sales commission. If they don't sell a car, they don't make money. In addition, many dealerships will fire a salesman that doesn't sell a minimum number of cars each month. To a car salesman, life depends on selling no matter what they have to do. Dealerships improve their profit margin on things most customers don't even understand. Virtually every bank that provides auto loans through dealers allows the dealer to "mark up" loans; that is, the dealer can increase the interest percentage and receive additional money from the bank. For example, the bank offers the dealer a 5% loan on a car you want to buy. The "finance manager" tells the salesman to "try for 8%". The salesman gives you a story about problems with your credit and says that his manager went to bat for you and got you a real deal on financing; only 8%. The bank and the dealer split the extra 3% you pay. Another scam is the "extended warranty". These items carry hefty markups and can add hundreds of dollars to the profit on your sale. Generally they are a bad deal. Customer loyalty costs money. Remember, car dealers are businesses. They calculate how much they stand to make on future sales if you leave happy. If the cost to their bottom line to make a deal with you is less than how much they stand to make later, then they will stop worrying about your future business and just try to get you to drive out with a car. "Invoice" price for a car is not really what the dealer is paying. Car companies know that invoice prices are published widely on the web. They are not dumb. Yes, the invoice price is real, but then there are additional discounts: advertising, early purchase, volume, etc. The most important thing to remember is that the car dealership is a business. It isn't your friend. If the salseman, service manager, or dealer owner can convince you that he is your friend, that works very well. Your guard is down. Let's take a look at how this plays out. First of all, the manufacturer and dealer want you to fall in love with the car. We know that works. We're here. When you are in love you don't think straight. You just want the object of that love; in this case a nice shiny Z. That's why the first thing a car salesman will do is "take your temperature" -- see how far gone you are for the car. Next, he will try to get you to fall head over heels for the car. Beautiful brochures, nice test drive, lots of conversation about how the really cool people love Z's. Sound familiar? At the same time a good salesman will try to make you his friend. He wants you to believe he is on your side. He reinforces this by taking your offer to "his manager". In the manager's office you can see him arguing on your behalf. If you think that is what is really happening, you are sunk. In fact, the sales manager is checking the auction price for your trade, asking the salesman if he thinks you will go for "add on's", and is pulling some credit reports to get an idea on financing. About financing. Most banks have rules that allow a dealer to place a loan without even calling the bank. It works this way: the dealer has a chart of credit scores; for example 700-780 and then a base interest rate, say 4%. The manager checks your score with the bank's favorite credit bureau and sees you can get a 4% loan. He tells the salesman to offer a loan at 7%. The salesman comes back from the managers office with a big smile and says that you can get the car for only $400 a month. Note that the conversation has moved from the actual price to your finance payment. Apparently lots of people never go any further. They think that they can afford $400 a month and close the deal right there. They never even ask what the term of the loan is or how much they are paying in interest. Next stop is the finance manager's office. This is where the dealer can make the big bucks. Here you are talked into warranties, upholstery treatments, rust proofing, etc. If the fiance manager senses that you are really far gone for the car, he or she will explain that the loan needs to be confirmed by the bank and will type away on the computer. With a sad face, she tells you that the bank is concerned about your loan. "They are worried that with this payment you will not be able to afford necessary maintenance or repairs. But, if you sign up for prepaid maintenance and an extended warranty, they will go ahead with the loan. This will cost an extrea $75 a month. For $475 a month the car can be yours. Many people just say yes, sign the papers, and drive away. They don't even know how much the car really cost. There are many variations to this story, but they all boil down to a few basic sales techniques: Get you to fall in love with the car so that the most important thing is to get it now. Divert your attention from the real cost and focus you on the monthly payment. Convince you that you need addtional extra-cost options to secure your loan. Can you beat this? Yes you can. It isn't hard but requires a much more hard nosed approach to car buying. Make sure you are ready to buy only if the deal makes good business sense to you. Do homework: Visit a bank or two and try to get a pre-approved car loan. Even if you get turned down, the banks will probably advise you on why and suggest what kind of loan you can get. Make a list in advance of the options you want and the exact model you want to purchase. You can do all your research online. If you take a test drive (avoid one if at all possible -- try to test drive a friend's instead), have a list of what you want to learn. Write that down. Do not let yourself get sucked into the "I have to have this car" mentality. If you feel that happening (I sure do!), then thank the salesman and say you will be back. You need to think about it. Of course, you really want to cool off so you can drive a better bargain. Only talk about the full price of the car. Never get sucked into the "monthly payment" mode of discussion. In fact, refuse to discuss financing at all until you reach agreement on the net cost of the car. The net cost is the price the dealer says you have to pay less any trade in. Remember, as you negotiate it doesn't matter at all which prices goes down, just the net amount. So if the dealer says you have to pay full sticker, but he will add $1000 to your trade in, then your net price has gone down $1000. Don't focus on just the car's price or your trade in.The only number that counts is the car's price minus the trade. That is your real price. Negotiate the financing. If you know you can do better (or even think you can), turn down the deal unless you get a better rate. This comes back to net cost to you. Calculate that by asking the salesman to tell you the total cost of financing for the loan he is proposing. He won't want to do it. It's a big number. But walk away if he won't. Add that cost to the price of the car. That is what you are really paying! Last, ask what the monthly payment will be. If the monthly payment is low, ask what it will be if you take a shorter loan. Usually the salesman will quote you a 72 month loan payment (it's the lowest). Ask what a 60-month loan will cost; total finance cost and monthly payment. In the finance manager's office you need to hang tough. If you really want any extras like an extended warranty, negotiate these with the salesman. He won't want to. He will say that the finance manager will "discuss" that with you. Refuse. Tell him that you want to know the total cost of the car before you go to the finance manager. The finance manager is also a salesman and frequently brings in more profit than the car sale. Be reasonable. While you are trying to make the best deal you can, remember that the dealer needs to make money too. Your goal should be to make a fair deal. A deal that looks too good to be true probably is. This is what I have learned after over 40 years of car buying. It really works. I will say that I paid a fair price for my Z. I probably could have saved another hundred or two by going to a dealer I liked less. But I give points (and dollars) to a dealer that treats me fairly. That brings me to the last point. Trust your instinct. If something bothers you about a dealer, walk away. If you feel positive, then follow the steps above, make the best deal you can, and feel good about your new car. All this holds true about used cars too. Though in that sort of deal you really need an independent inspection before you lay down a deposit. In a used car deal you need to know what you are buying. You should never rely on the dealer's statements, even if they are in writing. Remember, if the dealer lies, you will have to go to court. That costs money and time. Better to be sure before you buy.

11-10-2011, 02:46 PM	#7 (permalink)
daleks Enthusiast Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: St. Louis Posts: 424 Drives: 2011 Evo X MR Rep Power: 15	IMHO, it's more about leveling the information imbalance. Only at that point can you have a direct negotiation. That said, prior to going to a dealership you should do the following: 1. Get your credit score(s). 2. Get pre approved for an auto loan at a local bank or credit union. 3. Get the invoice price of the car you're interested in from Yahoo! Autos or KBB. At Yahoo! and Cars.com you can even price out the full car with options. 4. Get the manufacturer's incentives for your area. This is easy as going to the manufacturer's website and typing in your zip code. 5. Get the list of vehicles on the lot at the dealership. You can do this by going to their website. It's not always complete, but it will generally let you know if you are able to target something on-site. Once you do that there are few if any points of leverage the dealership can use. Also, one primary part of negotiation is being willing and even comfortable with making the other person uncomfortable. You also have to deflect the salesperson from doing that to you. TheW3r3W0lf likes this.

11-10-2011, 04:48 PM	#8 (permalink)
SeattleLion Base Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 226 Drives: '13 Mustang GT Prem. Rep Power: 234	One thing I learned when buying my Z was that different banks use different credit bureaus. The dealers know this and that's why they check all three. Your credit score can be dramatically different at different credit bureaus. 2xtreme1 likes this.

11-10-2011, 06:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
LakeShow A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: L.I., NY Posts: 5,307 Drives: Everything Rep Power: 26	Nice write up. __________________ \|2013 Audi S4\|Ibis White/Black\|S-Tronic P+\| \|2013 370z\|PearlWhite/Persimmon\|Touring/Sport/Nav\|F.I. CBE 18" CF\| \|Sold\|2011 370z\|Gun Metallic\|Touring/Sport/Nav\|

11-10-2011, 09:01 PM	#12 (permalink)
LT419 Base Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Connecticut Posts: 76 Drives: 11 370Z GM 6MT SP Rep Power: 14	When I bought mine, I went with the "brute force" method. Sat my * down and wouldn't budge until I got $3k off the list price six hours later. __________________ 2011 Gun Metallic 370Z Base 6MT + Sport Pkg.** "...Joey, do you like movies about gladiators?"

11-10-2011, 01:09 PM	#2 (permalink)
kenchan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N/A Posts: 76,801 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 141521	i usually have a pleasant experience buying cars... i think you either have it in you or you dont, the car buying techniques and a business mind. but after buying more than 20new cars i think anyone would have it by then. and people have it easier these days due to internet.

11-10-2011, 09:40 PM	#13 (permalink)
nmjaxx9 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Middletown, Ct Posts: 5,853 Drives: 2011 Nissan 370z Rep Power: 26	hope your rear end wasn't sore after that

11-10-2011, 09:40 PM	#14 (permalink)
sonic370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: Orange Texas Posts: 1,574 Drives: 09 370Z Sports PGK Rep Power: 18	You make some very solid points. Dealerships sometimes get a bad rap on here. deserved or not. to me it just boils down to do your homework. i don't think its as bad now as it once was. due to the economy. where they try to get you as you said is in finance department with all the add ons and extra interest rates.

11-11-2011, 05:48 AM	#15 (permalink)
SkyZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 382 Drives: 09 370z PG M6 Rep Power: 16	For me the experience is a little different yet it boils down to the same doing your homework. I usually test drive multiple different cars in a day travel dealerships for the sole purpose of test driving and experiencing cars. This is when I make mental notes about the car and its behaviors. Then when I finally settle on a car say the Z, I do a lot of research on what invoice is, what I want to pay for the car and simply refuse unless I get a certain price or certain rate. There isn't much science to it. Just knowing what you want and at what price you are willing to pay for it.

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