Nissan Ester Oil

semtex · 02-14-2010, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

But the stock break-in oil is Ester Oil, unless you can provide documentation to the contrary

I think this notion that Ester oil is the factory-fill is highly doubtful. I know, I know, I've heard the argument before: Nissan made this oil for this engine, so of course it comes from the factory filled with it. Per one of your previous posts in this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Nissan created the oil for this engine. I for one am 100% positive that they use the oil they created for the engine as the factory fill.

Sounds reasonable, except for two things. First off, Ester oil is recommended, not required, and most corporations -- especially Nissan -- have a habit of doing what's minimally required only. Why? Because they're bean-counting tightwads (just look at how they've handled the oil-cooler issue). So I don't think we can assume that a company will fill their cars with a specific oil even if they specifically designed that oil for that car. This is especially true if said oil is more costly than the regular stuff they use. I know, that just doesn't seem right. But I've seen stranger decisions made, especially whenever there are a few bucks to be saved.

More significant, however, is the TSB for VVEL noise for the G37. The G37 has the exact same engine, so one would expect it to come with Ester oil as factory-fill as well, right? After all, Nissan designed the oil for this engine. Yet, on the Infiniti side of the house, there's a TSB for the issue of valve noise ( ITB08-028a - Noise from bank 2 VVEL actuator). Guess what the TSB says the fix is? It's a two-parter: A software update, plus changing the oil over to Ester oil! Now, let's think about this. How would it make sense for part of the fix to be changing the oil over to Ester oil if it already came from the factory with the stuff in the engine? I mean c'mon, let's use a little common-sense deduction here. In spite of designing this oil for this engine, they're filling these engines up with the cheap stuff at the factory!

I do realize that there's always a chance that they're doing something different for the 370Z vs. what they're doing for the G37. Like maybe they're using Ester oil as the factory-fill for the Z but holding out on the G for some bizarre reason. That's why I chose to characterize it as highly doubtful, vs. using the word "impossible." But I don't think it's slam-dunk obvious that they're using Ester oil for factory-fill either, as you seem to think it to be. I would be quite surprised -- pleasantly so -- if they're using the good stuff for the factory-fill.

The TSB is attached below. You can also read more about this TSB at myg37.com

ITB08-028a - Noise from bank 2 VVEL actuator (amended 9/3/08) - MyG37

dalparadise · 02-14-2010, 01:33 PM

If Nissan doesn't ship 370s with ester oil in the engine, could the (equally difficult to prove and volatile to speculate) possibility exist that it isn't about cost at all, but instead that ester oil isn't good for break-in?

Why do we seem to go straight to "Nissan cheaped out" when the build and material quality of our cars is so high and doesn't indicate that mentality on the part of Nissan at all?

semtex · 02-14-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalparadise

If Nissan doesn't ship 370s with ester oil in the engine, could the (equally difficult to prove and volatile to speculate) possibility exist that it isn't about cost at all, but instead that ester oil isn't good for break-in?

Why do we seem to go straight to "Nissan cheaped out" when the build and material quality of our cars is so high and doesn't indicate that mentality on the part of Nissan at all?

Because on some aspects, the build and material quality of our cars isn't high at all. Look at the quality of our paint. Do you seriously think it's high quality? I think you'll find that most on this forum consider it to be piss poor. Having said that, yes it's possible that ester isn't good for break-in. I don't know enough about conventional oils with ester additives to take a stand one way or the other though. (Here we go with a whole new can of worms! lol )

blackflag · 02-14-2010, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

First off, Ester oil is recommended, not required, and most corporations -- especially Nissan -- have a habit of doing what's minimally required only. Why? Because they're bean-counting tightwads

But companies that spec for synthetic fill it with synthetic. Do you have a specific example?

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

How would it make sense for part of the fix to be changing the oil over to Ester oil if it already came from the factory with the stuff in the engine?

Wasn't the ester oil introduced after the engine already launched? That's why it's a TSB. Unless I'm wrong on that?

semtex · 02-14-2010, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackflag

But companies that spec for synthetic fill it with synthetic. Do you have a specific example?

Wasn't the ester oil introduced after the engine already launched? That's why it's a TSB. Unless I'm wrong on that?

I don't understand your first question. Specific example of what? As to your second question, I don't know when the ester oil was introduced. To be clear, it's entirely possible that they're using ester oil for factory-fill. I just don't think we have 100% conclusive evidence one way or the other yet is all. And if we have to guess, I personally would lean towards guessing that they're not. But maybe I'm just more cynical than the rest of you.

semtex · 02-14-2010, 03:23 PM

Okay, been doing some more digging. It looks like Nissan released its ester oil in Sep. of '08. So yes, that does explain the TSB for the G37. Indeed, I also just noticed that the TSB only applies to '08 G37s. It doesn't apply to later model years, so maybe I'm completely wrong on this and they are using the stuff as factory-fill after all. It'd be great if they are. I wish there were a way to know for sure though. Actually, I know a certain someone who works for Nissan Corporate who might stand a chance of finding a definitive answer for us. I'll PM him and update this thread if and when I get a response.

dalparadise · 02-14-2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Because on some aspects, the build and material quality of our cars isn't high at all. Look at the quality of our paint. Do you seriously think it's high quality? I think you'll find that most on this forum consider it to be piss poor. Having said that, yes it's possible that ester isn't good for break-in. I don't know enough about conventional oils with ester additives to take a stand one way or the other though. (Here we go with a whole new can of worms! lol )

My paint looks like a gray pane of well polished glass -- no texture or color variations to be found. So yes, I believe it to be of high quality. If paint softness is what you're talking about, I have yet to find any car that effectively avoids rock chips. Every car in my past that put primarily a painted surface forward looked like it had been sandblasted after a year or so.

For the Z, I opted for a clear bra to protect my high quality paint job. It seems to be working.

semtex · 02-14-2010, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalparadise

My paint looks like a gray pane of well polished glass -- no texture or color variations to be found. So yes, I believe it to be of high quality. If paint softness is what you're talking about, I have yet to find any car that effectively avoids rock chips. Every car in my past that put primarily a painted surface forward looked like it had been sandblasted after a year or so.

For the Z, I opted for a clear bra to protect my high quality paint job. It seems to be working.

I'm talking about the thinness of the paint, actually. I also have a ClearBra, but what I've noticed (along with many other people on this forum if you take the time to search) is that when an unprotected surface does get a chip, it goes right down to the bare metal. I don't have too many chips thanks to my ClearBra, but where I do have them, every single one goes right down to bare metal. Not all cars are like that. Heck, even my 350 wasn't like that. Neither is my wife's Murano, now that I think about it.

In any case, let's not get too far off topic. All I stated was that most companies will choose the route that yields the greatest profits, and often time that means using or doing what is minimally required. That's just common business practice, especially in the current economic climate of heavy cost-cutting. Trust me, I'm a business analyst at IBM and see it every day. If we provide a customer with more than what's minimally required, we can actually get reprimanded for it because by doing so, we're failing to maximize company profits. (I hate my employer, btw.)

NIZMOZ · 02-14-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Pennzoil = black pudding in your engine.

Penzoil makes one of the best oils out today. Penzoil Plat and Penzoil Ultra now. Blows M1 away in tests.

kannibul · 02-14-2010, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigPapa226

Point is, don't declare something is something unless you have proof FIRST, not second.

There was plenty of proof in the last engine I used Pennzoil in, when I had to change the valve cover gasket.

Nice try, but fail.

kannibul · 02-14-2010, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I think this notion that Ester oil is the factory-fill is highly doubtful. I know, I know, I've heard the argument before: Nissan made this oil for this engine, so of course it comes from the factory filled with it. Per one of your previous posts in this thread:

Sounds reasonable, except for two things. First off, Ester oil is recommended, not required, and most corporations -- especially Nissan -- have a habit of doing what's minimally required only. Why? Because they're bean-counting tightwads (just look at how they've handled the oil-cooler issue). So I don't think we can assume that a company will fill their cars with a specific oil even if they specifically designed that oil for that car. This is especially true if said oil is more costly than the regular stuff they use. I know, that just doesn't seem right. But I've seen stranger decisions made, especially whenever there are a few bucks to be saved.

More significant, however, is the TSB for VVEL noise for the G37. The G37 has the exact same engine, so one would expect it to come with Ester oil as factory-fill as well, right? After all, Nissan designed the oil for this engine. Yet, on the Infiniti side of the house, there's a TSB for the issue of valve noise ( ITB08-028a - Noise from bank 2 VVEL actuator). Guess what the TSB says the fix is? It's a two-parter: A software update, plus changing the oil over to Ester oil! Now, let's think about this. How would it make sense for part of the fix to be changing the oil over to Ester oil if it already came from the factory with the stuff in the engine? I mean c'mon, let's use a little common-sense deduction here. In spite of designing this oil for this engine, they're filling these engines up with the cheap stuff at the factory!

I do realize that there's always a chance that they're doing something different for the 370Z vs. what they're doing for the G37. Like maybe they're using Ester oil as the factory-fill for the Z but holding out on the G for some bizarre reason. That's why I chose to characterize it as highly doubtful, vs. using the word "impossible." But I don't think it's slam-dunk obvious that they're using Ester oil for factory-fill either, as you seem to think it to be. I would be quite surprised -- pleasantly so -- if they're using the good stuff for the factory-fill.

The TSB is attached below. You can also read more about this TSB at myg37.com

ITB08-028a - Noise from bank 2 VVEL actuator (amended 9/3/08) - MyG37

Nissan likes to cover ALL the bases with their TSB's and service manuals. By specifying the Nissan oil, they get a consistent test base...if it fails to fix the problem, in their eyes, they can rule out oil.

Makes sense from a consistency for diagnostics standpoint, more=so than from a requirement for use as the TSB may suggest to some.

kannibul · 02-14-2010, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I'm talking about the thinness of the paint, actually. I also have a ClearBra, but what I've noticed (along with many other people on this forum if you take the time to search) is that when an unprotected surface does get a chip, it goes right down to the bare metal. I don't have too many chips thanks to my ClearBra, but where I do have them, every single one goes right down to bare metal. Not all cars are like that. Heck, even my 350 wasn't like that. Neither is my wife's Murano, now that I think about it.

In any case, let's not get too far off topic. All I stated was that most companies will choose the route that yields the greatest profits, and often time that means using or doing what is minimally required. That's just common business practice, especially in the current economic climate of heavy cost-cutting. Trust me, I'm a business analyst at IBM and see it every day. If we provide a customer with more than what's minimally required, we can actually get reprimanded for it because by doing so, we're failing to maximize company profits. (I hate my employer, btw.)

Thin paint is an asset - it weighs less. Look at a ferrari...same deal with what we're seeing with ours relative to orange peel. It's a byproduct of thin paint more than badly applied paint.

semtex · 02-15-2010, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Thin paint is an asset - it weighs less. Look at a ferrari...same deal with what we're seeing with ours relative to orange peel. It's a byproduct of thin paint more than badly applied paint.

I suppose with that logic, you think corrosion is an asset too, right? After all, as various parts erode away, your car will weigh less.

lovethe370z · 02-16-2010, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I suppose with that logic, you think corrosion is an asset too, right? After all, as various parts erode away, your car will weigh less.

370Zsteve · 02-16-2010, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I think this notion that Ester oil is the factory-fill is highly doubtful. I know, I know, I've heard the argument before: Nissan made this oil for this engine, so of course it comes from the factory filled with it. Per one of your previous posts in this thread:

Sounds reasonable, except for two things. First off, Ester oil is recommended, not required, and most corporations -- especially Nissan -- have a habit of doing what's minimally required only. Why? Because they're bean-counting tightwads (just look at how they've handled the oil-cooler issue). So I don't think we can assume that a company will fill their cars with a specific oil even if they specifically designed that oil for that car. This is especially true if said oil is more costly than the regular stuff they use. I know, that just doesn't seem right. But I've seen stranger decisions made, especially whenever there are a few bucks to be saved.

More significant, however, is the TSB for VVEL noise for the G37. The G37 has the exact same engine, so one would expect it to come with Ester oil as factory-fill as well, right? After all, Nissan designed the oil for this engine. Yet, on the Infiniti side of the house, there's a TSB for the issue of valve noise ( ITB08-028a - Noise from bank 2 VVEL actuator). Guess what the TSB says the fix is? It's a two-parter: A software update, plus changing the oil over to Ester oil! Now, let's think about this. How would it make sense for part of the fix to be changing the oil over to Ester oil if it already came from the factory with the stuff in the engine? I mean c'mon, let's use a little common-sense deduction here. In spite of designing this oil for this engine, they're filling these engines up with the cheap stuff at the factory!

I do realize that there's always a chance that they're doing something different for the 370Z vs. what they're doing for the G37. Like maybe they're using Ester oil as the factory-fill for the Z but holding out on the G for some bizarre reason. That's why I chose to characterize it as highly doubtful, vs. using the word "impossible." But I don't think it's slam-dunk obvious that they're using Ester oil for factory-fill either, as you seem to think it to be. I would be quite surprised -- pleasantly so -- if they're using the good stuff for the factory-fill.

The TSB is attached below. You can also read more about this TSB at myg37.com

ITB08-028a - Noise from bank 2 VVEL actuator (amended 9/3/08) - MyG37

Oh yes, I know all about the TSB. It's also from 2008. I've never said I KNOW the factory fill is Nissan Ester. I've always maintained that those who say "there is no mention of Nissan Ester being used as factory fill" (specifically you and Modshack) can be countered with the opposite argument: "There is no mention of Nissan Ester NOT being used as factory fill".

IMO, Nissan would be crazy to develop an oil specifically for an engine and then not use it. And I wish someone, ANYONE from Nissan would put this tired old subject to rest. Their silence is deafening. Putting Mobil1 as factory fill in the GT-R doesn't clarify much, either.

I actually sent a request to Nissan Corporate to clarify this in December. I never received a response.

02-14-2010, 01:33 PM	#272 (permalink)
dalparadise The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: May 2009 Location: Houston Posts: 354 Drives: 2010 Z Roadster T/S Rep Power: 16	If Nissan doesn't ship 370s with ester oil in the engine, could the (equally difficult to prove and volatile to speculate) possibility exist that it isn't about cost at all, but instead that ester oil isn't good for break-in? Why do we seem to go straight to "Nissan cheaped out" when the build and material quality of our cars is so high and doesn't indicate that mentality on the part of Nissan at all? __________________ 2010 Platinum Graphite Roadster - Tour/Sport/6MT/GReddy SE catback/B&M short shift If the top is up, it must be parked.

02-14-2010, 03:23 PM	#276 (permalink)
semtex A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Behind enemy lines Age: 54 Posts: 5,995 Drives: People to drink Rep Power: 32	Okay, been doing some more digging. It looks like Nissan released its ester oil in Sep. of '08. So yes, that does explain the TSB for the G37. Indeed, I also just noticed that the TSB only applies to '08 G37s. It doesn't apply to later model years, so maybe I'm completely wrong on this and they are using the stuff as factory-fill after all. It'd be great if they are. I wish there were a way to know for sure though. Actually, I know a certain someone who works for Nissan Corporate who might stand a chance of finding a definitive answer for us. I'll PM him and update this thread if and when I get a response. __________________ "There are no small accidents on this circuit." -- Ayrton Senna 316.8whp & 248 ft/lbs (Dyno Dynamics) \| 319whp & 256 ft/lbs (DynoJet) (04/23/10) Stillen G3 CAI, CBE, Pulley / F.I. LTH / GTSpec Ladder Brace / Setrab Oil Cooler / UpRev-tuned by Forged Perf.