An Open Challenge to the Aftermarket

Jordo! · 03-10-2011, 04:57 PM

Intakes - show us it can at least outperform a K&N panel filter on the OEM airbox. Who cares if you can outflow a paper filter element on a totally stock set up.

Exhaust - Show us head-to-head comparisons with other aftermarket CBE's or TP's, not just a comparison with the OEM set up. You can easily find folks who will have other exhausts on their car already who will probably be thrilled to assist you in testing for a discount or free part.

Actually, just showing it will outperform the OEM nismo exhaust (bolted to a Non-Nismo Z that is) or the the S-tune would be useful info.

For LTH's, show us it can outperform a set of test pipes, which can be had at a fraction of the cost.

Wheels - Tell me the weight. If I don't know the weight, all I can base my decision on is bling factor. A lot of guys want to know this simple piece of info that is rarely ever listed.

Would also be helpful to know the range of tire widths that will fit.

For those of you who are already good enough to prodvide this info and make these sorts of comparions on independent dynos, THANK YOU

Hopefully other ambitious developers in the aftermarket will follow suit.

modme · 03-10-2011, 05:05 PM

If aftermarket manufacture did that, then no one would purchase their products. It is part of advertising and marketing to exaggerate numbers and capitalize on customer's wishful thinking. All manufactures are there to make money. None of them make products because they care about you and want to help your car make the most power.

That's why the forums is here. It allows individuals to post independent numbers and comparisons.

Jordo! · 03-10-2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by modme

If aftermarket manufacture did that, then no one would purchase their products. It is part of advertising and marketing to exaggerate numbers and capitalize on customer's wishful thinking. All manufactures are there to make money. None of them make products because they care about you and want to help your car make the most power.

Captializing on wishful thinking is not acceptable. That's what a scam is.

Hence my challenge.

Consumers who care about where their money is going (and Z parts are, in general, not cheap) should make the same demands.

Listing wheel weights, for example, is not fvcking hard to do...

Likewise, it's not that hard or all that more expensive to demonstrate your intake can outdo a high flow panel filter on the OEM airbox.

If it can't, why should I buy it?

modme · 03-10-2011, 05:10 PM

Wheel manufactures intentionally do not post weights. This is a tactic that is used especially by Vossen. Even if you call the manufacture, they will not give you an exactly weight. Reason? They know exactly how much the wheels weight, but the heavy weight factor will deter many buyers. So they try to hide it.

modme · 03-10-2011, 05:16 PM

In the end, you just have to do your own research. Manufactures and most vendors are just after your money.

chuckd05 · 03-10-2011, 05:20 PM

our cars seem to all get to the same spot after full bolt ons regardless of what brand with hfc/intake/exhaust

also jnaut who ran 12.2 has LTH, as well as gears and flywheel, but no one is even close...

I will be doing a test pipe/PE LTH comparison some time in the next month or so, so one of your questions will be answered..

also Stillen has shown countless dyno graphs by them and customers that show gains with the G3 Intakes.. all in which would be more than just KN filters...

there's a ton of dynos on exhausts too, i don't fully understand your beef here..

One this i DEF agree with you on is wheels and there weight... that I never understood... all thought discount tire direct had all the weights on hand when I called of there wheels when I was looking for winter wheels... which was nice

but if its the first mod our cars gain a ton, than dwindle down... but in the end 325whp on a dyno jet seems to be the number with I/HFC or TP/Exhaust

Jordo! · 03-10-2011, 05:30 PM

^^^ This is the point of my thread: To call out the BS artists and demand they do a little better.

I do realize some companies post good comparison data/ wheel weights -- I'm neither singling out the heroes or the villians by name, just calling attention to the issue.

Public service for newbies

I agree with your comments on the converging numbers as you approach the upper limits, regardless of the specfiic brand of parts, but anyone over 310 on a dynojet is either using STD correction, or has LTH and pulleys.

I haven't seen too many (any?) SAE corrected numbers for a dynojet in the 320's with I/TP or HFC/CBE and a tune (maybe Nismos, but I'm convinced they have different VVEL tuning to help out)...

Super Moderator II · 03-10-2011, 05:54 PM

Keep it on Topic. No Politics!

Any further disregard to the Forum Rules
Will earn the lucky one some time off!!
<<<<<<

Trips · 03-10-2011, 06:22 PM

I think for the most part the numbers given are pretty close. I'm pretty happy with the results so far

6MT · 03-10-2011, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Captializing on wishful thinking is not acceptable. That's what a scam is.

Hence my challenge.

Consumers who care about where their money is going (and Z parts are, in general, not cheap) should make the same demands.

Listing wheel weights, for example, is not fvcking hard to do...

Likewise, it's not that hard or all that more expensive to demonstrate your intake can outdo a high flow panel filter on the OEM airbox.

If it can't, why should I buy it?

YOU need to do some research yourself. Make an effort. If what you want is what you've said, then it's up to you to make an effort and find the "best" parts for your car. The facts are all over the place. The reviews are everywhere from a very wide range of drivers/owners. (Especially here on this forum.)

I'm not trying to be rude. But you can't expect someone else to do the work for you since you're the one who's spending the money.

And remember..... caveat emptor!!

Jordo! · 03-10-2011, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6MT

YOU need to do some research yourself. Make an effort. If what you want is what you've said, then it's up to you to make an effort and find the "best" parts for your car. The facts are all over the place. The reviews are everywhere from a very wide range of drivers/owners. (Especially here on this forum.)

I'm not trying to be rude. But you can't expect someone else to do the work for you since you're the one who's spending the money.

And remember..... caveat emptor!!

Yes I can -- they are making the money I'd be spending.

How exactly does a consumer make this determination without buying multiple sets of everything?

If a manufacturer is going to take the time to build a product and gather evidence of its effectiveness on the dyno, he might as well at least show it's better than a high flow panel filter -- that is not an unreasonable request.

Neither is it unreasonable to ask that dealers selling wheels provide some basic info about the wheel. They have them on hand to weigh; I don't until I buy it.

Some companies/dealers already do this -- I'm humbly asking that more do the same.

I'm not asking for exhaustive R&D here...

christian370z · 03-10-2011, 07:30 PM

1) I think the gains of long tube intakes are very well documented at this point and that I have yet to anyone running K&N filters matching power levels of those running long tube intakes even when matched with the intake coupling.

2) Exhausts: you have to consider that it can never be an entirely fair comparison because unless every exhaust manufacturer uses the exact same dyno and the exact same car on the exact same day with the exact same temperatures and ambient conditions... Well, you probably get the drift.

3) I agree whole heartedly, the weights of wheels are very important in my personal decision making and have noticed a fair amount of ambiguity surrounding this topic even from vendors and manufacturers selling them.

Red__Zed · 03-10-2011, 10:45 PM

it would be nice.

The wheel weights is my biggest complaint, and that one just makes no sense.

Trips · 03-10-2011, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

it would be nice.

The wheel weights is my biggest complaint, and that one just makes no sense.

Same here.

Jordo! · 03-10-2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christian370z

1) I think the gains of long tube intakes are very well documented at this point and that I have yet to anyone running K&N filters matching power levels of those running long tube intakes even when matched with the intake coupling.

Really. I have yet to see clear evidence of it outperfoming it -- links? Dynos?

Where is the back to back comparison? SO far all I know is that piping airfrom in front of the radiators (LTI/CAI) makes more power than drawing in in from behind (SRI). However, the OEM airbox also draws air from in front.

Quote:

Originally Posted by christian370z

2) Exhausts: you have to consider that it can never be an entirely fair comparison because unless every exhaust manufacturer uses the exact same dyno and the exact same car on the exact same day with the exact same temperatures and ambient conditions... Well, you probably get the drift.

Shops have lifts and techs -- invite someone over with their current CBE, swap it out, and face off against the competition.

Now to be fair, that is more work ...

But facing off against a set of K&N panels is NOT a big deal or expense.

There's a new intake under development even as we speak -- I hope they keep this open challenge in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by christian370z

3) I agree whole heartedly, the weights of wheels are very important in my personal decision making and have noticed a fair amount of ambiguity surrounding this topic even from vendors and manufacturers selling them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

it would be nice.

The wheel weights is my biggest complaint, and that one just makes no sense.

^^^ Hear that, wheel salesmen???

If you don't know, break out the scale! For 2 - 4K for a set, I think this isn't too much for consumers to ask

03-10-2011, 04:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	An Open Challenge to the Aftermarket Intakes - show us it can at least outperform a K&N panel filter on the OEM airbox. Who cares if you can outflow a paper filter element on a totally stock set up. Exhaust - Show us head-to-head comparisons with other aftermarket CBE's or TP's, not just a comparison with the OEM set up. You can easily find folks who will have other exhausts on their car already who will probably be thrilled to assist you in testing for a discount or free part. Actually, just showing it will outperform the OEM nismo exhaust (bolted to a Non-Nismo Z that is) or the the S-tune would be useful info. For LTH's, show us it can outperform a set of test pipes, which can be had at a fraction of the cost. Wheels - Tell me the weight. If I don't know the weight, all I can base my decision on is bling factor. A lot of guys want to know this simple piece of info that is rarely ever listed. Would also be helpful to know the range of tire widths that will fit. For those of you who are already good enough to prodvide this info and make these sorts of comparions on independent dynos, THANK YOU Hopefully other ambitious developers in the aftermarket will follow suit. __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it.

03-10-2011, 05:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
modme Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: NY Posts: 345 Drives: G37 Rep Power: 16	If aftermarket manufacture did that, then no one would purchase their products. It is part of advertising and marketing to exaggerate numbers and capitalize on customer's wishful thinking. All manufactures are there to make money. None of them make products because they care about you and want to help your car make the most power. That's why the forums is here. It allows individuals to post independent numbers and comparisons. __________________ GTM Twin Turbo Stage 2\|GTR Turbo/Engine Gauges\|KW V3 Coilovers\|HKS Exhaust\|Oil Cooler\| Vossen CV1 Last edited by modme; 03-10-2011 at 05:10 PM.

03-10-2011, 05:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
modme Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: NY Posts: 345 Drives: G37 Rep Power: 16	Wheel manufactures intentionally do not post weights. This is a tactic that is used especially by Vossen. Even if you call the manufacture, they will not give you an exactly weight. Reason? They know exactly how much the wheels weight, but the heavy weight factor will deter many buyers. So they try to hide it. __________________ GTM Twin Turbo Stage 2\|GTR Turbo/Engine Gauges\|KW V3 Coilovers\|HKS Exhaust\|Oil Cooler\| Vossen CV1

03-10-2011, 05:16 PM	#5 (permalink)
modme Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: NY Posts: 345 Drives: G37 Rep Power: 16	In the end, you just have to do your own research. Manufactures and most vendors are just after your money. __________________ GTM Twin Turbo Stage 2\|GTR Turbo/Engine Gauges\|KW V3 Coilovers\|HKS Exhaust\|Oil Cooler\| Vossen CV1

03-10-2011, 05:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
chuckd05 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NY Posts: 2,391 Drives: No longer a Z Rep Power: 20	our cars seem to all get to the same spot after full bolt ons regardless of what brand with hfc/intake/exhaust also jnaut who ran 12.2 has LTH, as well as gears and flywheel, but no one is even close... I will be doing a test pipe/PE LTH comparison some time in the next month or so, so one of your questions will be answered.. also Stillen has shown countless dyno graphs by them and customers that show gains with the G3 Intakes.. all in which would be more than just KN filters... there's a ton of dynos on exhausts too, i don't fully understand your beef here.. One this i DEF agree with you on is wheels and there weight... that I never understood... all thought discount tire direct had all the weights on hand when I called of there wheels when I was looking for winter wheels... which was nice but if its the first mod our cars gain a ton, than dwindle down... but in the end 325whp on a dyno jet seems to be the number with I/HFC or TP/Exhaust __________________ 09 370Z 6M PW - FBO Best 1/4 mile = 12.926 @ 109 SOLD -- 08 BMW 135i - FBO 12.1@120mph SOLD -- white 09 e92 335 Coupe Mtech - 11.9 @ 119 :-) Last edited by chuckd05; 03-10-2011 at 05:24 PM.

03-10-2011, 05:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	^^^ This is the point of my thread: To call out the BS artists and demand they do a little better. I do realize some companies post good comparison data/ wheel weights -- I'm neither singling out the heroes or the villians by name, just calling attention to the issue. Public service for newbies I agree with your comments on the converging numbers as you approach the upper limits, regardless of the specfiic brand of parts, but anyone over 310 on a dynojet is either using STD correction, or has LTH and pulleys. I haven't seen too many (any?) SAE corrected numbers for a dynojet in the 320's with I/TP or HFC/CBE and a tune (maybe Nismos, but I'm convinced they have different VVEL tuning to help out)... __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it.

03-10-2011, 05:54 PM	#8 (permalink)
Super Moderator II Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Earth Posts: 379 Drives: a Spaceship Rep Power: 6264	Keep it on Topic. No Politics! Any further disregard to the Forum Rules Will earn the lucky one some time off!! <<<<<< __________________ Last edited by Super Moderator II; 03-10-2011 at 06:18 PM.

03-10-2011, 06:22 PM	#9 (permalink)
Trips Administrator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Disneyland, Ca Posts: 8,730 Drives: 🔰 Rep Power: 10	I think for the most part the numbers given are pretty close. I'm pretty happy with the results so far

03-10-2011, 07:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
christian370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Newport Beach Posts: 3,900 Drives: 2010 370Z/Saab 900se Rep Power: 432	1) I think the gains of long tube intakes are very well documented at this point and that I have yet to anyone running K&N filters matching power levels of those running long tube intakes even when matched with the intake coupling. 2) Exhausts: you have to consider that it can never be an entirely fair comparison because unless every exhaust manufacturer uses the exact same dyno and the exact same car on the exact same day with the exact same temperatures and ambient conditions... Well, you probably get the drift. 3) I agree whole heartedly, the weights of wheels are very important in my personal decision making and have noticed a fair amount of ambiguity surrounding this topic even from vendors and manufacturers selling them. __________________ -320whp / 259wftlbs- SP Rays -- RE-11s -- SpecialtyZ Tune -- Swift Springs -- Stillen 25R Oil Cooler -- Stillen G3 Intakes -- Berk HFCs -- F.I. 12" CBE -- Stillen Sway Bars -- Es14 Spring -- INGS+1 lip -- CF Spoiler -- GTR Start Button -- VLED Parking Lights -- PWJDM V2 shift knob

03-10-2011, 10:45 PM	#13 (permalink)
Red__Zed A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: window seat Posts: 28,940 Drives: Mostly on two wheels Rep Power: 120	it would be nice. The wheel weights is my biggest complaint, and that one just makes no sense.

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