An Open Challenge to the Aftermarket

Jordo!

Really. I have yet to see clear evidence of it outperfoming it -- links? Dynos?

Where is the back to back comparison? SO far all I know is that piping airfrom in front of the radiators (LTI/CAI) makes more power than drawing in in from behind (SRI). However, the OEM airbox also draws air from in front.


Shops have lifts and techs -- invite someone over with their current CBE, swap it out, and face off against the competition.

Now to be fair, that is more work ...

But facing off against a set of K&N panels is NOT a big deal or expense.

There's a new intake under development even as we speak -- I hope they keep this open challenge in mind.


^^^ Hear that, wheel salesmen???

If you don't know, break out the scale! For 2 - 4K for a set, I think this isn't too much for consumers to ask

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christian370z

Yes, but the the internal structure of the factory air box is more convoluted than simply having a filter leading into straight pipe. That is where the limitations of the stock intakes are found even with new filters come from and that is why I believe that they can't produce the same power gains as a set of long tube intakes.

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Jordo!

Thus, I am calling them out. I am hoping other potential buyers will do the same.

I agree 100% with the theory -- but I have yet to see clear evidence of it. Actually, I was surprised to see the panel filters plus smooth tubes making approximately equal gains.

Also, you keep making reference to the longer tubes as if the tubing length itself (rather than where it pulls air) is important -- it might be, but longer tubes tend to move peak torque down not up. Does that appear to occur with the longer tube intakes? Do they mainly gain in the midrange?

Again, I am looking for clear empirical evidence of performance differences -- how hard would it be to test?

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chuckd05

where are these links of K&N making equal gains ? I have seen numerous G3 dynos.. I have yet to see a single dyno of K&N making 7-8 whp on any car site that I have ever looked at. 350zs did tend to make similar power with stock intakes compared to JWT short ram and same with 370z short ram intakes. But the LT intakes (more a year or so ago ) had dynos popping up with power being made repeatedly... most of it is way up top but power is made... G3 , AEM, and Injen

Here is a link to a dyno, that was the very first thread that popped up when I google searched... made 20 WHP , yes 20 WHP

STILLEN Longtube G3 Intakes. Review, Dyno and Impressions. - from RCZ ( repuatable forum member )

and here is one from Semtex, another repuatable forum member who had HFC and Berk CBE + 14.8 WHP

Install of Stillen G3 Intakes complete - review, etc.


ummm, i think that argument should be over

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modme

The manufactures knows the exact weight of the wheels. It's part of the process of getting the wheels DOT approved. They purposely hide it because they know that once you find out the weight, you will not buy the wheels.

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esfourteen

Do you honestly expect manufacturers to do back to back comparisons against competitors parts? You seem more focused on proving all of us Gen3 owners wrong with your k&n drop ins, find someone local and have at it, post up the results.

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Jordo!

Go back and look at my dyno thread. Between the K&N and smooth intake tubes I picked up easily in the 10 -12 range total.

I've also seen dynos where the change from G3's is less than 10 whp. Then there's at least one member who gained a whopping 12 whp just from the smooth intake tubes (part of this, is that the first breather mod always seems to make a little extra than the same mod would added later).

In any case, it's not the raw values that matter, it's the % improvement from baseline that matters.

Anyway -- this is why I'd like to see a back to back comparison, same car, same dyno.

If you feel there's no question, and I'm just off base, then don't worry about what I have to say on the matter.


Sure, why not? Why is the burden of proof on the consumer? Why bother to show gains over stock?

I am not the first person who has made the case for the OEM airbox+high flow filters+ smooth tubes -- I'm just going on data.

Anway, I am completely confident that your intake performs better than a SRI and better than the OEM airbox with a paper element. I have no interest in making you feel bad about your purchase.

What I don't want to see are people shelling out over $500 bucks for something that may not be worth it.

But you are right -- in the end, they can decide for themselves. I'm just putting this out there as food for thought.

Anyway, I've said my peace. If no one agrees or cares, so be it -- I'll shut up

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esfourteen

It's not that I don't agree on some level. It would certainly be nice if manufacturers only put out the best products that showed pros and cons against competitors products, but its completely unrealistic, there would be no market.

Regarding the specific comparison we were discussing, g3 vs panels, burden of proof does not apply here. Stillen does not claim to be better than any specific competitors parts, they claim an increase in power over stock. Which is proven. Thats all any part manufacturers do. Why should they be required to prove that their part is better than anyone else's? What happens when a new intake comes out? Is stillen now obligated to do a comparison against EVERY intake that competes with their product? You mentioned "at least compare it to drop ins" but why only drop in filters, where do we draw the line and who decides it?

In the end, it's up to the consumers to decide, as it was and always will be.

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Jordo!

No of course not -- I would just like to see clear evidence of how much better the pod does than the panel.

Hell, even K&N won't do that -- and they actually sell both types

Of course they're not required, just like wheel salesmen aren't required to post weights -- it's an open request (if challenge sounds too unecessarily aggressive) to the aftermarket to go the extra mile.

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Jordo!

Sorry to hammer away once more at the horse's corpse, but just wanted to clarify something regarding K&N panel+smooth intake tubes vs. CAI.

I just went and reviwed 6 different dyno threads, and the average gain from baseline with the CAI was about 5.33%.

I would estimate (based on what few dynos we have) that K&N+smooth tubes will net about 3.5-4% gain.

So what does the extra 1.83% to 1.33% gain in power mean?

Well, on a 275 whp car, it's 4-5 whp.

Thus, the CAI's should net about 4-5 more whp than the high flow panel filter+smooth tube set up.

Is that worth more than double the price ($200 vs $500+)? That's up to the consumer to decide I suppose...

So....

If you are on a budget and want very good bang for the buck -- K&N+smooth intake tubes should get you within a few whp of the pricier CAI.

For the few extra whp, if you have the cash or can get a really good deal on a set, the CAI will slightly (by ~1.5%) outdo the OEM set up with high flow filter and nicer tubes.



P.S.
All of these are on untuned Z's... it is quite possible that the difference will be less or greater once tuning is brought into play.

However, considering the high degree of convergence for top numbers on fully bolted-on tuned Z's, my guess is that the two set-ups will be closer in gains once tuned, not further away, but it is an empirical question for which more data is needed...

EDIT: I've recently seen evidence of gains closer to 6-8 on the average -- that's quite a bit better than I had found based on other dynos.

So... bang for the buck, the winner is still the tubes plus high flow panels, but IMHO, if you can grab a set of the G3's on sale (say, < $350) it's definitely worth it. Still a bit pricey for the gains at retail, IMO (nearly $500!), but worth it if you can find a set at a good price

I'll see if I can eventualy track down a set for myself, and will share clear back to back runs to better resolve the issue... assuming I can find one on sale...

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darrinps

I agree with all of this but let me say this (and I am gonna catch flak I know), all these peak power measurements are next to worthless on a car driven on the street. One needs to look at the total area under the curve of the useable RPM range. My guess, and no I have not done the math, is that the K&N drop ins (or in my case the AFEs) and HKS tubes
are even closer than that.

nuTinmuch

Some of you guys are crazy. A dude comes on here asking for the aftermarket to give some validity to their claims, and you say he's lazy?

The sort of **** the car aftermarket pulls on consumers wouldn't fly anywhere else.

I don't think he (or anyone else) is looking for real world track time comparisons. He's just looking for base statistics that are a crucial part of all of these components.

I mean, imagine for a second if Intel or AMD didn't give consumers info on their chip and just sold it as is? Or if an electric guitar maker didn't tell you what sort of pickups you were getting? Or if you bought food and they refused to tell you the ingredients? You get the picture.

It's pretty ridiculous that wheel manufacturers are shady with weight -- especially when they are in the forged market that basically markets to performance buyers. Same for every other type of performance part. I'm not asking for comparison tests -- I just want to know basic figures.

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Red__Zed

They tell us what we are getting, though. Dyno gains will vary from car to car, and so there isn't really an answer. You wouldn't expect a pickup maker to advertise the exact signal gain that will be experienced in your situation, and AMD/Intel can only tell you how the chip performs on its own.

There isn't enough demand for companies to bother extensive testing. Stillen sells plenty of intakes without much documentation, and they would sell only a marginal amount more if they showed the results of extensive testing.
Most people are more concerned with price than performance. Would you be willing to pay an extra $100-150 for intakes just to have documentation on them?

Jordo!

I agree 100%





They won't vary that much.

Again, read my comment on how many air filter manufacturers do comparions with competitors.

It won't raise the cost $100 per unit -- frankly, they're way overpriced as it is.

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MightyBobo

This thread is fairly hilarious - its like the lazymans approach to car modding. Like you should be able to walk into a McDonalds and see everything you wanted to know about every part all nicely laid out for you on a buffet table to choose from.

With your previous post, you've spoken the obvious that everyone already knew - the price/value relationship will generally be drastically inverted the more power gains you have. Of course, this is related to similar parts (you cant compare the value of a 100WHP gain from juice to the cost of 100HP from a supercharger...).

You are not entitled to have all the information you want, simply because you have cash. Sometimes, its even like comparing apples to apples, and its all preference.

Tell you what...how about companies do exactly what you want on one condition: they do it on the same day that every single car/motor from a manufacturer is IDENTICAL to each other, down to the tenth of a horsepower. Enough that whatever mod you do will give the EXACT SAME RESULT on another car. And that is yet another reason why they dont advertise numbers - your results will vary. You even said it yourself - "on average", "should net", "should get you within a few whp". Can you guarantee? No.

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