Do you believe in factory freaks
 

if you know what a factory freak is then comment. its basically a car that gets turned out and is better than a bunch of others for "freakish reasons". My friend swears by it.

Basically you could stick two stoc z's with the same driver and one would be faster bc its a "factory freak".

The dyno numbers are so skewed some people on here claiming such high numbers have to have freaks from the factory.

Any experience or comments.....I swear I got the runt of the litter LOL

well there will always be slight differences between engine but its not like one Z is going to be 40 HP more powerfull.

the only ones that I can recall have differences are hand built engine like the GT-R's engine.

Yea factory freak cars are really only going to be on hand built cars

The ECU probably kills any individualism anyways.....

every 1000th car gets a free port and polish from the factory lol

Yah tolerance in spec. This is normal.

I'm with wheee. Every ECU is the exact same. And it determines what's going on.

It used to happen a lot more. Since the factory tolerances are getting tighter and tighter, it's very unlikely these days. Not saying it wont' happen, just very unlikely.

Iv'e talked with two different tuners and their comments are that each 370Z/VQ is different. How that plays with the "factory tolerance" is a good question.

I have an early 09 and feel like my car is special or per the OP a freak. :tup:

Not fair......I think they ran out of the 370Z engine internals and stuck a few Versa pistons in my VQ.....:(

Gotta find that good tuner I guess :tup:

I don't believe that there are "freaks," I just think that they were on some optimistic dynos.

There certainly can be factory freaks. One of my friends had an S2k that would consistently dyno 30-40 more whp than others, when they were run back to back on the same dyno. It is much less common due to tight factory specs, but it does happen.

Most people enjoy claiming they have a "factory freak" after running on a dyno that overrates power, but they're actually very rare.

maybe two percent variation in power at the most. Test/dyno/operator can make a bigger difference than that. Cars are engineered and manufactured to very high controls and repeatability these days, even "hand built" Italian cars. It's a matter of economics.

your friend's car was modified. This is simply not possible according to physics. Do the math on BMEP and you'll see that to produce 20%+ more power, something rather drastic is required - displacement, forced air, nitrous, head modification, etc.

some turn out freaks, some turn out normal, and some turn out lemons :eek:

:iagree:

:stirthepot:

In reality, small differences due to better or worse ring sealing (burn any oil?) might mean slightly more compression and a few more whp, but nothing earth shattering.

Given the tighter tolerances in modern engine builds, my theory is that so-called "factory freaks" (at least in modern engines) are all due to apples to oranges dyno comparions (e.g., dynapack vs dynojet) or someone using a wildly optimisitic correction factor or looking at uncorrected values in the middle of winter.

In other words it's horsesh!t.

On older motors you probably did have more variablity betwen carbeurators working properly and engines having good compression. Modern engines are far less variable in build or tune.

I don't.

Used to, some of the domestic car companies would slip a hotter cam into the car or something (Say they ran out of cams for one trim-level, they would reach into the performance bin and slap that in there), but that kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore.

What is there to "make a car a freak"?

All of the parts are made to a certain +- spec, and they go in the car the same way. If your car is making more or less power than others, it has something that is not right in it, and that's no bueno.

Proof to support OP's theory:
http://www.herbiemania.com/marchmontpenny2.jpg
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being a former Nissan mechanic I do believe in the Wednesday car. Shitty cars come from the factory because the workers are hung over on Monday, still don't want to be there Tuesday, Wednesday is good. Then Thursday and Friday they are looking forward to the weekend. It seemed like Maximas were the worst. Most ran like you would expect, a few were complete dogs, and every once in while you would get one that would haul. I stomped one and slipped the tires (not a burn out but more than a chirp) from 40mph. I think alot of it has to do with the self learning ECU's. It learns your usual driving patterns and adjusts fuel and timing to that. The people the baby their cars all the time tended to have cars taht were a little slower. The people that drive more aggressively (not thrashed) had a little more performance. I haven't worked at a dealer since the end of 05. Things may have changed a lot but i doubt it.

Yes factory freaks are common in all cars. VQs tend to vary on power based on mileage and other factors. I've seen two stock 350Zs of the same year dyno 20whp apart on the same dyno back to back.

Then one of them had something seriously wrong with it.

The "freak" was the weaker one.

How do you explain a F20C dynoing 232whp from the factory, while 4 other s2000's on the same dyno, same day dyno'd in the 195whp range.


Anyone doubting the existence of factory freaks can simply take a look at the Nismo section. They're all factory freaks!:inoutroflpuke:

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1. Don't know, it's all hearsay. You tell me how that would happen? My guess is there were other things going on with that motor or the tune that were not explained. Maybe that one revved to 10,000 RPM's.

You're saying these were all unmodifed, bone stock engines with a stock ECU tune? I call BS on that. There is no way a four banger made nearly 40 more horses due to a lucky engine build or ECU transient modifiers such as fuel trims and ignition advance.

2. The Nismos have a different tune, my guess being especially in the VVEL.

Seriously, what would be the logical possible cause of the alleged factory freakishness?

The only major variable is going to be how well the engines break in, which could result in small differences due to compression. For the rest, the ECU is going to keep the tune fairly stable so long as nothing else is changed.

The biggest variable will be the weather.

I was there for the dyno runs, saw it myself. All four cars were stock AP1's, with between 15-30k on the clock. I had never believed that FF's had existed (aside from examples of hot cam in grandma's buick), but having seen it in person makes me wonder a little.

The early hand-built prototypes of engine usually make more power than the production version. I think the early build F20C's laid around 285 bhp, but it was toned down for the production model, since there was some allocated variance in the spec. Maybe his engine happened to have gotten tolerances just right, maybe the ECU adjusted a little different...I don't know. His car laid down notably more power, and was faster on the drag strip than I'd ever seen from a stock S2K.

If there was a completely different build and ECU -- maybe. But while I could see maybe 10+ horses from better compression and a little more spark advance or whatever on the same build and tune, 35-40 is hard to believe.

Imagine it had a whole extra compression point (unlikely) or a slightly better flowing head (probably not) -- that's just not going to equate to a 20% bump in power.

How much tighter can tolerance be before it's simply a different engine? For that huge a difference (nearly 20% more power!) were talking a totally different build and tune -- there's just no way.

That's like the difference between a 1ZZ and a 2ZZ engine, and although they have the same displacement and bolt up interchangeably,
the 2ZZ has a totally different short block, head, cam and cam mechanism, and ECU to make that power -- they are two completely different engines!

I'm not trying to be a ****, but there's just no way to explain that huge a difference due to tighter tolerances and an aggressive self-corrected ECU without completely different mechancial parts and a totally, radically, different tune. Something else was going on there and that guy wasn't telling the whole tale. but there's no way those were all identical engines and ECUs. Impossible.

If it was a special prototype or whatever, then it had different parts and a different ECU and is not a factory freak (or at least what I think the term implies) -- just a different set up.

To give you another example, sticking with the 2ZZ engine -- early models (introduced end of 1999) had the ECU tuned by Toyotoa to have the second cam profile activate about 200 RPM earlier than the 2000+ models, making it hit peak torque a bit earlier and making it easier to stay in the power band on gear changes -- that could be construed, I suppose as a "factory freak" in that few cars on the road had this feature and it was otherwise the same build and tune -- BUT, some key elements of the tune were clearly different and it wasn't a "freak" per se (implying a fluke or unintentional/unplanned difference), just a difference between the earlier and later factory tune.

And it wasn't no 40 whp difference. That's a huge difference, espeically on a small displacement motor. I just don't buy it.

EDIT: Wait -- these are NA motors right? The above commentary is for NA -- I'd be more willing to believe it for a boosted car, but even then we're talking a different turbine or big, big difference in the tune.

JORDO!!!........stranger things have happened....lol

Yes, they're NA. I can't tell you why, I can just echo what I saw.

A lot of the "factory freaks" are either optimistic dyno's, or underrated cars. My WRX dyno'd at about 25x whp on the same dyno that the new STI's are laying 265. Doesn't really account for the difference between 305 and 265, but that's just a function of the WRX being underrated from the factory.

Yes -- definitely. A lot of cars get underrated from the manufacturer.

I didn't know about the old domestics and the possiblity of getting a different cam -- but to me that must be the truth behind the "factory freak" -- and it certainly would be an unintetnional fluke to put a wildly different cam in a motor just because they ran out of the specified one.

On modern engines, any "freak" would have to be due to either slightly different ECU tunes (as in the early model 2ZZ Celicas) or maybe JDM vs domestic (totally different motors on the 240/Silvias!).

That guy with the Honda - man, I just don't know. If you know him or the people at the shop, it would be interesting to learn more about it.

We need to get Mythbusters on this one :p

On the Z, I think the major differences will be due to:

1. Even on the same dyno, the ECU needs MORE than 3 pulls to make adjustments that will show gains in power. Plan on 6 runs, not 3 to make sure that bolt on did as advertised.

There is almost no point to making comparisons between runs from different types of dynamometers (e.g., dynopack vs dynojet), but see further here http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/03...ash/index.html

2. These motors burn oil! That could mean if you have an oil burning engine, poor ring sealing, and slight loss of compression, meaning a little less power.

3. VVEL is an untunable (currently) and mysterious thing... there is almost definitely a LOT of adjusting the ECU makes to VVEL depending on ambient conditions and engine load.

Moreover, on the Nismo, I think the map is very different, which is why they tend to make more power with the same mods, even as compared to a tuned non nismo Z.

4. Break in -- some people dyno for baseline well before 5K on the motor. I think that's too early (but would like to here from someone more knowledgeable on break in periods), and I bet compression (and power) will be higher after 5K than before. I'd say 3K at the earliest, but ideally, wait unitl 5K.

5. The gear used during the dyno run. My recommendation is for BOTH AT and MT to dyno in 4th gear even though 5th is 1:1. For rationale and further details, see further here http://www.the370z.com/engine-drivet...ent-gears.html

I have heard the same thing about the VQ motors taking longer than most to properly break in.

You get more Lemons than freak cars!

I think that's why although most (non nismo) Z's come in around 273ish +/-5 SAE corrected on a dynojet, but every now and then, one comes in on a dynojet well below the low end of that -- I think it's gotta be an early dyno run before break in is complete.

After 5K, a low baseline (say, below 268 on a dynojet) would make me think the compression should be checked or an overly conservative correction factor is being used.

The only "freaks" I've seen or heard about haven't been performance related:
My brother's Z4 M coupe came with one tinted rear quarter panel window and all the rest weren't tinted. Apparently, the tinted window is a European option, so someone picked up the part from the wrong bin. Also, my dealer told me one black cherry Z that they sold came with 40th Anniv wheels from the factory by mistake. The owner hated it (I agree the colour combo was totally wrong) and had the dealership swap it for him.

i think iv'e seen more freak drivers than i have cars...:happydance:

Way back when, all my 280Z mechanics, would comment on how strong the motor was. It was bone stock*. At 170,000 miles I put in one of those used 280Z engines with 30,000 miles on it. It was a lot weaker (maybe 10-20 hp). This would be the only example of factory freak I could cite, and freak seems a bit much.

* later I had a deep throat installed on both engines

I saw that car. blechh. Did not go. Luckily they sold it to an out of towner... lol! They put the wheels on a black 370 and modded the car to look like a NISMO as they don't sell them in Canada. Still looked wrong.... IMO

I would be curious to see the stats from the GT-Rs since they are all factory dyno'd. All those numbers are in a database somewhere. Don't they even come with a dyno sheet/certificate.

Given the microfinish requirements and tolerances of todays manufacturing processes, it is more likely to have a lemon than a "freak". And I concur that a freak would be more likely the tune than a mechanical aspect. Hand built race motors may be a different story. The guys that build them will tell you loose motors rev fast and pull hard... you just don't know when they are going to come apart.