Do you believe in factory freaks

Red__Zed · 02-21-2011, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

If there was a completely different build and ECU -- maybe. But while I could see maybe 10+ horses from better compression and a little more spark advance or whatever on the same build and tune, 35-40 is hard to believe.

Imagine it had a whole extra compression point (unlikely) or a slightly better flowing head (probably not) -- that's just not going to equate to a 20% bump in power.

How much tighter can tolerance be before it's simply a different engine? For that huge a difference (nearly 20% more power!) were talking a totally different build and tune -- there's just no way.

That's like the difference between a 1ZZ and a 2ZZ engine, and although they have the same displacement and bolt up interchangeably,
the 2ZZ has a totally different short block, head, cam and cam mechanism, and ECU to make that power -- they are two completely different engines!

I'm not trying to be a ****, but there's just no way to explain that huge a difference due to tighter tolerances and an aggressive self-corrected ECU without completely different mechancial parts and a totally, radically, different tune. Something else was going on there and that guy wasn't telling the whole tale. but there's no way those were all identical engines and ECUs. Impossible.

If it was a special prototype or whatever, then it had different parts and a different ECU and is not a factory freak (or at least what I think the term implies) -- just a different set up.

To give you another example, sticking with the 2ZZ engine -- early models (introduced end of 1999) had the ECU tuned by Toyotoa to have the second cam profile activate about 200 RPM earlier than the 2000+ models, making it hit peak torque a bit earlier and making it easier to stay in the power band on gear changes -- that could be construed, I suppose as a "factory freak" in that few cars on the road had this feature and it was otherwise the same build and tune -- BUT, some key elements of the tune were clearly different and it wasn't a "freak" per se (implying a fluke or unintentional/unplanned difference), just a difference between the earlier and later factory tune.

And it wasn't no 40 whp difference. That's a huge difference, espeically on a small displacement motor. I just don't buy it.

EDIT: Wait -- these are NA motors right? The above commentary is for NA -- I'd be more willing to believe it for a boosted car, but even then we're talking a different turbine or big, big difference in the tune.

Yes, they're NA. I can't tell you why, I can just echo what I saw.

A lot of the "factory freaks" are either optimistic dyno's, or underrated cars. My WRX dyno'd at about 25x whp on the same dyno that the new STI's are laying 265. Doesn't really account for the difference between 305 and 265, but that's just a function of the WRX being underrated from the factory.

Jordo! · 02-21-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Yes, they're NA. I can't tell you why, I can just echo what I saw.

A lot of the "factory freaks" are either optimistic dyno's, or underrated cars. My WRX dyno'd at about 25x whp on the same dyno that the new STI's are laying 265. Doesn't really account for the difference between 305 and 265, but that's just a function of the WRX being underrated from the factory.

Yes -- definitely. A lot of cars get underrated from the manufacturer.

I didn't know about the old domestics and the possiblity of getting a different cam -- but to me that must be the truth behind the "factory freak" -- and it certainly would be an unintetnional fluke to put a wildly different cam in a motor just because they ran out of the specified one.

On modern engines, any "freak" would have to be due to either slightly different ECU tunes (as in the early model 2ZZ Celicas) or maybe JDM vs domestic (totally different motors on the 240/Silvias!).

That guy with the Honda - man, I just don't know. If you know him or the people at the shop, it would be interesting to learn more about it.

We need to get Mythbusters on this one

On the Z, I think the major differences will be due to:

1. Even on the same dyno, the ECU needs MORE than 3 pulls to make adjustments that will show gains in power. Plan on 6 runs, not 3 to make sure that bolt on did as advertised.

There is almost no point to making comparisons between runs from different types of dynamometers (e.g., dynopack vs dynojet), but see further here http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/03...ash/index.html

2. These motors burn oil! That could mean if you have an oil burning engine, poor ring sealing, and slight loss of compression, meaning a little less power.

3. VVEL is an untunable (currently) and mysterious thing... there is almost definitely a LOT of adjusting the ECU makes to VVEL depending on ambient conditions and engine load.

Moreover, on the Nismo, I think the map is very different, which is why they tend to make more power with the same mods, even as compared to a tuned non nismo Z.

4. Break in -- some people dyno for baseline well before 5K on the motor. I think that's too early (but would like to here from someone more knowledgeable on break in periods), and I bet compression (and power) will be higher after 5K than before. I'd say 3K at the earliest, but ideally, wait unitl 5K.

5. The gear used during the dyno run. My recommendation is for BOTH AT and MT to dyno in 4th gear even though 5th is 1:1. For rationale and further details, see further here The Effect of Dynoing in Different Gears

samb03 · 02-21-2011, 05:41 PM

I have heard the same thing about the VQ motors taking longer than most to properly break in.

PapoZalsa · 02-21-2011, 05:46 PM

You get more Lemons than freak cars!

Jordo! · 02-21-2011, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samb03

I have heard the same thing about the VQ motors taking longer than most to properly break in.

I think that's why although most (non nismo) Z's come in around 273ish +/-5 SAE corrected on a dynojet, but every now and then, one comes in on a dynojet well below the low end of that -- I think it's gotta be an early dyno run before break in is complete.

After 5K, a low baseline (say, below 268 on a dynojet) would make me think the compression should be checked or an overly conservative correction factor is being used.

djpathfinder · 02-21-2011, 08:52 PM

The only "freaks" I've seen or heard about haven't been performance related:
My brother's Z4 M coupe came with one tinted rear quarter panel window and all the rest weren't tinted. Apparently, the tinted window is a European option, so someone picked up the part from the wrong bin. Also, my dealer told me one black cherry Z that they sold came with 40th Anniv wheels from the factory by mistake. The owner hated it (I agree the colour combo was totally wrong) and had the dealership swap it for him.

sonic370 · 02-21-2011, 09:02 PM

i think iv'e seen more freak drivers than i have cars...

Mt Tam I am · 02-21-2011, 10:51 PM

Way back when, all my 280Z mechanics, would comment on how strong the motor was. It was bone stock*. At 170,000 miles I put in one of those used 280Z engines with 30,000 miles on it. It was a lot weaker (maybe 10-20 hp). This would be the only example of factory freak I could cite, and freak seems a bit much.

* later I had a deep throat installed on both engines

wheee! · 02-22-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djpathfinder

The only "freaks" I've seen or heard about haven't been performance related:
My brother's Z4 M coupe came with one tinted rear quarter panel window and all the rest weren't tinted. Apparently, the tinted window is a European option, so someone picked up the part from the wrong bin. Also, my dealer told me one black cherry Z that they sold came with 40th Anniv wheels from the factory by mistake. The owner hated it (I agree the colour combo was totally wrong) and had the dealership swap it for him.

I saw that car. blechh. Did not go. Luckily they sold it to an out of towner... lol! They put the wheels on a black 370 and modded the car to look like a NISMO as they don't sell them in Canada. Still looked wrong.... IMO

BeachZTT · 02-22-2011, 01:40 PM

I would be curious to see the stats from the GT-Rs since they are all factory dyno'd. All those numbers are in a database somewhere. Don't they even come with a dyno sheet/certificate.

Given the microfinish requirements and tolerances of todays manufacturing processes, it is more likely to have a lemon than a "freak". And I concur that a freak would be more likely the tune than a mechanical aspect. Hand built race motors may be a different story. The guys that build them will tell you loose motors rev fast and pull hard... you just don't know when they are going to come apart.

In2Deep · 02-22-2011, 02:14 PM

I had a factory freak once.
1989 Mazda MX-6 GT. I think the factory claimed 225HP or something in that neighborhood -- but the car ran like a bat outta h3LL, bone stock. Trips from L.A. to Vegas were a blur -- with many high performance cars left in my dust. Great car, blast to drive.

02-21-2011, 05:46 PM	#34 (permalink)
PapoZalsa A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Not in Sunny Florida Posts: 6,358 Drives: 16 Nismo w/Tech Pack Rep Power: 4500	You get more Lemons than freak cars! __________________ 2009 370Z MB Base w/Sport Package 6MT Modshack's Custom Air Intakes /3M Clear Bra/ Illuminated Kick Plates / F. I CBE w/12" resonators / EVO-R Front Lip / Rear Hatch Wing / Tein S-Tech Springs /Ilegal Tint in the Rep. of VA/4x20mm Z1 Spacers/ Vinyl Roof/Liquid Carbon Designs

02-21-2011, 08:52 PM	#36 (permalink)
djpathfinder A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 12,910 Drives: 2012 GT-R BE Rep Power: 733	The only "freaks" I've seen or heard about haven't been performance related: My brother's Z4 M coupe came with one tinted rear quarter panel window and all the rest weren't tinted. Apparently, the tinted window is a European option, so someone picked up the part from the wrong bin. Also, my dealer told me one black cherry Z that they sold came with 40th Anniv wheels from the factory by mistake. The owner hated it (I agree the colour combo was totally wrong) and had the dealership swap it for him. __________________ 2012 GT-R Black Edition Jet Black 2010 370Z 40th Anniversary // SOLD

02-21-2011, 10:51 PM	#38 (permalink)
Mt Tam I am A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: California Posts: 10,709 Drives: 370Z T/S/N 6MT & XKE Rep Power: 3843	Way back when, all my 280Z mechanics, would comment on how strong the motor was. It was bone stock. At 170,000 miles I put in one of those used 280Z engines with 30,000 miles on it. It was a lot weaker (maybe 10-20 hp). This would be the only example of factory freak I could cite, and freak seems a bit much. later I had a deep throat installed on both engines __________________ "Does the carpet match the drapes? NO!!! I don't date bald women." Nissan Motorsports 34R Oil Cooler. Stillen CBE. Hotchkis Sport Sway Bars. KW Variant 3 Coilover System. Stillen Gen3 CAI. Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Stillen Brake Ducts. Carbotech™ XP10/XP8 Pads. Z1 Front Rotors. Z1 Stainless Brake Lines. Two degrees of camber

02-22-2011, 01:40 PM	#40 (permalink)
BeachZTT Track Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 746 Drives: '10 BC ZR T/S/Nav Rep Power: 17	I would be curious to see the stats from the GT-Rs since they are all factory dyno'd. All those numbers are in a database somewhere. Don't they even come with a dyno sheet/certificate. Given the microfinish requirements and tolerances of todays manufacturing processes, it is more likely to have a lemon than a "freak". And I concur that a freak would be more likely the tune than a mechanical aspect. Hand built race motors may be a different story. The guys that build them will tell you loose motors rev fast and pull hard... you just don't know when they are going to come apart. __________________ '10 ZR Black Cherry Sport/Touring/Nav, Swift Springs, Stillen G3s, 15mm-F 20mm-R Spacers, SPC, Spoiler Solutions Rear Wing, Stubby Antenna

02-22-2011, 02:14 PM	#41 (permalink)
In2Deep Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Austin Posts: 48 Drives: Plat Graphite Spt/Tr Rep Power: 16	I had a factory freak once. 1989 Mazda MX-6 GT. I think the factory claimed 225HP or something in that neighborhood -- but the car ran like a bat outta h3LL, bone stock. Trips from L.A. to Vegas were a blur -- with many high performance cars left in my dust. Great car, blast to drive. __________________ ...and now a message from our sponsors

02-21-2011, 05:41 PM	#33 (permalink)
samb03 Base Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: western Oklahoma Posts: 164 Drives: Black Cherry Sport Rep Power: 15	I have heard the same thing about the VQ motors taking longer than most to properly break in.

02-21-2011, 09:02 PM	#37 (permalink)
sonic370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: Orange Texas Posts: 1,574 Drives: 09 370Z Sports PGK Rep Power: 18	i think iv'e seen more freak drivers than i have cars...

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