SyncroRev Matching vs Traditional Double-Clutching

spearfish25 · 04-02-2009, 09:39 AM

Hey guys,

I'm a proud new owner of a 6MT with the SyncroRev Matching feature, but I've long been a manual transmission driver. While the new rev matching is amazing and fabulous, I still want to do what's best and 'easiest' on my car the majority of the time. Given that I can double clutch and heel-toe downshift, what is truly the best way to maintain the car's longevity in the drivetrain....using syncrorev matching or the traditional double-clutch?

My thought is that double-clutching is better IF you can do it correctly as syncrorev matching really is just single-clutching with rev matching. However, if one can't rev match correctly (a tough thing to nail on the head every time you downshift), perhaps syncrorev matching is better as you get a smoother downshift and avoid engine-transmission speed variations that arise with poor double-clutching.

What are your thoughts? I'd love to hear from some expert/advanced drivers using MTs.

Thanks,

Alex

Musashi · 04-02-2009, 09:49 AM

Alex, I shut off my sport mode and I heal toe, double clutch, it's way more fun! I honestly don't think it makes a difference as long as you do 1 or the other. I do think the rev matching is great though, except when it revs when ur shifting from 4 to 5.

wstar · 04-02-2009, 10:12 AM

I would suspect that the SRM is going to match better than a human most of the time. You might occasionally line it up within a few percent, but in the long run, SRM is going to nail it every single time, and you're not (no offense

). Throwing double-clutching into the mix is interesting though, it's an angle I hadn't considered.

Even on a normal synchro (but not SRM) manual, double-clutching can give a smoother engage when shifting while cornering. I would bet you can double-clutch with SRM if you got the timing down. SRM is going to make the call on what gear its revving for as soon as you begin to hit the outer part of the gate for that gear. Seems like you could, at that point, drop the clutch and re-engage it before shoving all the way into gear, and get the benefits of both SRM and double-clutching. Anyone tried that out? Does it work? Sorry, 7AT on my Z here, I can't.

Musashi · 04-02-2009, 10:18 AM

I'll try it but my hypothesis is that the car and I will not like it! lol
and wstar, I practise my heal & toe so I can get more and more accurate. When your at the track its what you have to do! When you nail it perfectly its very satisfying.

cotizi · 04-02-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musashi

I do think the rev matching is great though, except when it revs when ur shifting from 4 to 5.

that is exactly the comment I was going to make. its always a little too anxious about thinking you might wanta go to third! I guess it takes me a little longer to get thru the neutral and into gear. dunno.

Musashi · 04-02-2009, 10:20 AM

Cotizi, I notice it trying to rev match on my 4to5 shift the most when I'm shifting very quickly. If I go 4-----nice-----and--------slow------leisurely---------5 it's smooth.

MightyBobo · 04-02-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musashi

Cotizi, I notice it trying to rev match on my 4to5 shift the most when I'm shifting very quickly. If I go 4-----nice-----and--------slow------leisurely---------5 it's smooth.

It does it on every single up shift. Try this sometime - rev up to 4 or 5K in 2nd gear, and then slide it into 4th. Hold the clutch in, watch your tach. It'll drop, and VERY suddenly stop at the EXACT RPM to just drop the clutch into gear. Kinda handy.

tbonesteak · 04-02-2009, 10:42 AM

double clutching is no longer necessary on today's transmissions. In the 70s yes it was necessary. lol

wstar · 04-02-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbonesteak

double clutching is no longer necessary on today's transmissions. In the 70s yes it was necessary. lol

You're right that it's no longer necessary (even in the 70s I think it was already unnecessary) with synchronized manual gearboxes - however the practice still has benefits. The extra engagement at the correct rpm mid-shift (while in neutral) spins up the clutch plate and the input side of the gearbox to the rpm you plan to engage the gears at. Then when you (quickly) re-depress the clutch and engage, there's less rotating mass spinning at the wrong speed for the engine to overcome inertia on, which means a smoother shift, which means less "kick" at the rear tires, which can be really important if the shift is happening during a hard turn where you're using most of your tire grip just to hold the corner.

Musashi · 04-02-2009, 02:05 PM

Look anyone that wants a hell ride in my Z with the SRM off I'll show you all a thing or 2.

tbonesteak · 04-02-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musashi

Look anyone that wants a hell ride in my Z with the SRM off I'll show you all a thing or 2.

That's if your oil temps stay low long enough....

Musashi · 04-02-2009, 06:32 PM

haha!

alan93rsa · 04-03-2009, 03:42 PM

I think his oil system is headed for a Spa treatment.

Musashi · 04-03-2009, 04:36 PM

Thats a good 1! =)

spearfish25 · 04-03-2009, 06:00 PM

Thanks for all the input guys. My take is as Wstar said...I'm a lot less likely to nail the RPMs right on every time when compared to SRM. I agree Musashi that when you do heel-toe manually, it's incredibly gratifying when you get it dead on. In fact, those times tend to surprise the **** out me

.

As for SRM being overzealous on the upshifts, I too found that slower is better. I don't think it's truly about the speed as much as our own human imperfection in transitioning from 4-5. If we do it quickly, I bet we often accidentally bump the 3 gate in the process. However, slowing down and allowing the shifter to set in neutral and then progress to 5 is likely a more accurate path. I about lost my lunch on the highway today when I downshifted from 5 to 4 and the car revved for a 2 shift

04-02-2009, 09:39 AM	#1 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	SyncroRev Matching vs Traditional Double-Clutching Hey guys, I'm a proud new owner of a 6MT with the SyncroRev Matching feature, but I've long been a manual transmission driver. While the new rev matching is amazing and fabulous, I still want to do what's best and 'easiest' on my car the majority of the time. Given that I can double clutch and heel-toe downshift, what is truly the best way to maintain the car's longevity in the drivetrain....using syncrorev matching or the traditional double-clutch? My thought is that double-clutching is better IF you can do it correctly as syncrorev matching really is just single-clutching with rev matching. However, if one can't rev match correctly (a tough thing to nail on the head every time you downshift), perhaps syncrorev matching is better as you get a smoother downshift and avoid engine-transmission speed variations that arise with poor double-clutching. What are your thoughts? I'd love to hear from some expert/advanced drivers using MTs. Thanks, Alex

04-02-2009, 09:49 AM	#2 (permalink)
Musashi Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 357 Drives: 09 370Z 6speed Rep Power: 606	Alex, I shut off my sport mode and I heal toe, double clutch, it's way more fun! I honestly don't think it makes a difference as long as you do 1 or the other. I do think the rev matching is great though, except when it revs when ur shifting from 4 to 5. Last edited by Musashi; 04-02-2009 at 09:57 AM.

04-02-2009, 10:12 AM	#3 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	I would suspect that the SRM is going to match better than a human most of the time. You might occasionally line it up within a few percent, but in the long run, SRM is going to nail it every single time, and you're not (no offense ). Throwing double-clutching into the mix is interesting though, it's an angle I hadn't considered. Even on a normal synchro (but not SRM) manual, double-clutching can give a smoother engage when shifting while cornering. I would bet you can double-clutch with SRM if you got the timing down. SRM is going to make the call on what gear its revving for as soon as you begin to hit the outer part of the gate for that gear. Seems like you could, at that point, drop the clutch and re-engage it before shoving all the way into gear, and get the benefits of both SRM and double-clutching. Anyone tried that out? Does it work? Sorry, 7AT on my Z here, I can't. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-03-2009, 03:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
alan93rsa Enthusiast Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 412 Drives: 16 Cayman GT4 Red Rep Power: 220	I think his oil system is headed for a Spa treatment. __________________ 16 Cayman GT4, Carmine Red, Buckets, PCCB etc.

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04-02-2009, 10:18 AM	#4 (permalink)
Musashi Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 357 Drives: 09 370Z 6speed Rep Power: 606	I'll try it but my hypothesis is that the car and I will not like it! lol and wstar, I practise my heal & toe so I can get more and more accurate. When your at the track its what you have to do! When you nail it perfectly its very satisfying.

04-02-2009, 10:20 AM	#6 (permalink)
Musashi Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 357 Drives: 09 370Z 6speed Rep Power: 606	Cotizi, I notice it trying to rev match on my 4to5 shift the most when I'm shifting very quickly. If I go 4-----nice-----and--------slow------leisurely---------5 it's smooth.

04-02-2009, 10:42 AM	#8 (permalink)
tbonesteak Track Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Socal Posts: 914 Drives: MY09 MB 6MT Rep Power: 375	double clutching is no longer necessary on today's transmissions. In the 70s yes it was necessary. lol

04-02-2009, 02:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
Musashi Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 357 Drives: 09 370Z 6speed Rep Power: 606	Look anyone that wants a hell ride in my Z with the SRM off I'll show you all a thing or 2.

04-02-2009, 06:32 PM	#12 (permalink)
Musashi Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 357 Drives: 09 370Z 6speed Rep Power: 606	haha!

04-03-2009, 04:36 PM	#14 (permalink)
Musashi Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 357 Drives: 09 370Z 6speed Rep Power: 606	Thats a good 1! =)

04-03-2009, 06:00 PM	#15 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	Thanks for all the input guys. My take is as Wstar said...I'm a lot less likely to nail the RPMs right on every time when compared to SRM. I agree Musashi that when you do heel-toe manually, it's incredibly gratifying when you get it dead on. In fact, those times tend to surprise the **** out me . As for SRM being overzealous on the upshifts, I too found that slower is better. I don't think it's truly about the speed as much as our own human imperfection in transitioning from 4-5. If we do it quickly, I bet we often accidentally bump the 3 gate in the process. However, slowing down and allowing the shifter to set in neutral and then progress to 5 is likely a more accurate path. I about lost my lunch on the highway today when I downshifted from 5 to 4 and the car revved for a 2 shift