Paddle Shift

wstar · 04-06-2009, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyz10

Hey guys I have a question.. I noticed a small jolt when I am in manual mode and slows down to a standstill around 2nd and 1st gear. I mean I won't downshift the car because in manual mode if you slow down it will just downshift to your speed. but I feel the car when it shifts to 2nd and then 1st. does you rcar do that?

It's a little annoying, but all of our cars do that. You'll notice if you pay close attention that even in "D", the car downshifts as it comes to a stop. However, in "D" it downshifts smoothly and you don't really feel it. In "M" mode the timing is different and has more jerk.

(For those that don't own one and might not understand the rest of this - the 7AT in M-mode isn't completely manual. It downshifts for you as you decelerate, but it does so at very low rpms, much lower than a human would usually downshift at)

This probably has to do with timing compromises to avoid surprising the driver in M-mode (which it still does, but they're trying). The "surprise" part that they're trying to avoid, but which can still happen sometimes, is when the car downshifts on its own a split second before you request a downshift. Like if I'm coming into a curve in 3rd, and I think "hmmm I want to be in 2nd", but a split second before I click the paddle, the car downshifts into 2nd on its own, then interprets my paddle input as a request for 1st gear. That can be really confusing. Don't forget that while in a turn, the indicator for the current gear is often obscured by the steering wheel too.

Coming down to a near-stop at a stoplight that then turns green before full-stop can be annoying in the M-mode too if you let the revs drop to the point that M-mode downshifts for you. Ends up being a lot of confusion between you and the car about what gear you want to take off in at that point.

The bottom line is that from a driver's perspective while focusing on all the other things you're doing while driving, the gear selection in M-mode at low engine rpms while decelerating is unpredictable, and therefore any further shifter input is a guessing game. The best way to handle this is quite simple: don't use M-mode for low-rpm driving. If you plan to let the revs down that far anyways, just put it back in D and save yourself some work and confusion. M-mode is for when you're *really* driving, in which case you'll be keeping the revs in the 2k+ region (at least

), and the car won't interfere or downshift on its own.

What I'd love to see, if someone like UpRev can pull it off, would be an ECU mod that doesn't allow the M-mode to downshift for you, avoiding the confusion.

wstar · 04-06-2009, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZCarGo

No matter which way you cut it, the paddle shifters are nowhere near what a manual will feel like. It's difficult to paddle down into a curve, especially if you want to drop from 6th or 7th to 3rd or 2nd and ease off the clutch and apply gas as you are moving through the curve. It's really difficult to get the down shift to the right gear when you are worried about paying attention to the curve and can't look at the damn display. Sometimes I depress the paddle three times and it only drops two gears, sometimes more...WTF??

Since the transmission is always engaged, it revs up to the appropriate level, but it's definately not the same as a manual when you have so much more control through turns.

Some of this is a matter of adapting how and when you use the M-mode. If you need to drop 3 gears that fast, you were at low rpms to begin with. Start downshifting earlier and stay in the power band

I find that when driving aggressively and keeping the revs up, shifting through corners is very natural for me with the 7AT. If you're in 6 or 7 coming into a tight corner, you may as well just have left it in "D"

Another interesting thing about technique with flipping between D and M is initial gear selection. If you've been cruising at any reasonable highway-ish speed, "D" will be in 7th gear at the time. However, if you flip the lever over to "M" at that point, it immediately downshifts to 5 before giving you control (on the assumption you're taking over to downshift into a corner I guess). In situations where you don't want that, simply click the upshift paddle first before flipping the shift knob to M, and you'll stay in 7 through the transition. In general, it's easiest to make the D-to-M transition by first using the paddles in D (which "temporarily" puts it in M-mode) and then flipping the shifter to M, as it avoids surprise gear changes.

arcticreaver · 04-06-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Some of this is a matter of adapting how and when you use the M-mode. If you need to drop 3 gears that fast, you were at low rpms to begin with. Start downshifting earlier and stay in the power band

I find that when driving aggressively and keeping the revs up, shifting through corners is very natural for me with the 7AT. If you're in 6 or 7 coming into a tight corner, you may as well just have left it in "D"

Another interesting thing about technique with flipping between D and M is initial gear selection. If you've been cruising at any reasonable highway-ish speed, "D" will be in 7th gear at the time. However, if you flip the lever over to "M" at that point, it immediately downshifts to 5 before giving you control (on the assumption you're taking over to downshift into a corner I guess). In situations where you don't want that, simply click the upshift paddle first before flipping the shift knob to M, and you'll stay in 7 through the transition. In general, it's easiest to make the D-to-M transition by first using the paddles in D (which "temporarily" puts it in M-mode) and then flipping the shifter to M, as it avoids surprise gear changes.

actually that's what i'm doing, just upshifting and not really trying to downshift. so when i need to down shift i just slap it back to D. but i don't do this a lot.

joeyz10 · 04-06-2009, 01:33 PM

Hey Wstar that all makes sense and thanks for your input. Appreciate it. Nice to know that it is not only my car that is doing that jolt thing. I always drive stick so this is something new to me but I will get used to it just like you guys are. I am around 1400 miles now and wlays driving hard......

JoeyD · 04-06-2009, 01:45 PM

I get the 2-1 clunky downshift too. Forewarning...it gets firmer as time goes on. At almost 10k miles I have learned not to drive casually in M mode, because that downshift could make you chip a tooth.

wstar · 04-06-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyD

I get the 2-1 clunky downshift too. Forewarning...it gets firmer as time goes on. At almost 10k miles I have learned not to drive casually in M mode, because that downshift could make you chip a tooth.

Almost 10k miles???

And I was starting to feel bad for having 2400 on mine so far...

tvfreakazoid · 04-06-2009, 03:29 PM

How are the paddle shifting? Is it pretty fast?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Almost 10k miles???

And I was starting to feel bad for having 2400 on mine so far...

wstar · 04-06-2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

How are the paddle shifting? Is it pretty fast?

If you're referring to the overall topic of this thread (paddle shifters, and other related 7AT topics), then yes, it doesn't apply to manual cars.

JoeyD · 04-06-2009, 03:57 PM

^^I like to think that I can shift a manual very quickly. The auto shifts faster than even my best shifts (albeit not by very much) and does so with flawless consistency.

And yeah 10K miles. I drive a lot, and my commute is almost 30 miles each way. I'm trying to move closer to work. Hopefully that will cut my miles by a 2/3rds.

wstar · 04-06-2009, 05:45 PM

Hmm someone edited what I replied to earlier, my response doesn't even make sense now

As far as shifting speed goes, I think it's really good for an auto with paddle shifters. On a straight line, pedal to the floor - I think an experienced 6MT driver can shift faster, because those are the easiest/fastest shifts to make and there's nothing else going on. But for curvy stuff where one would be shifting "carefully" and watching car balance, etc, I think the 7AT will hold its own against a 6MT driver just fine.

hey32g · 04-06-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

It's a little annoying, but all of our cars do that. You'll notice if you pay close attention that even in "D", the car downshifts as it comes to a stop. However, in "D" it downshifts smoothly and you don't really feel it. In "M" mode the timing is different and has more jerk.

(For those that don't own one and might not understand the rest of this - the 7AT in M-mode isn't completely manual. It downshifts for you as you decelerate, but it does so at very low rpms, much lower than a human would usually downshift at)

This probably has to do with timing compromises to avoid surprising the driver in M-mode (which it still does, but they're trying). The "surprise" part that they're trying to avoid, but which can still happen sometimes, is when the car downshifts on its own a split second before you request a downshift. Like if I'm coming into a curve in 3rd, and I think "hmmm I want to be in 2nd", but a split second before I click the paddle, the car downshifts into 2nd on its own, then interprets my paddle input as a request for 1st gear. That can be really confusing. Don't forget that while in a turn, the indicator for the current gear is often obscured by the steering wheel too.

Coming down to a near-stop at a stoplight that then turns green before full-stop can be annoying in the M-mode too if you let the revs drop to the point that M-mode downshifts for you. Ends up being a lot of confusion between you and the car about what gear you want to take off in at that point.

The bottom line is that from a driver's perspective while focusing on all the other things you're doing while driving, the gear selection in M-mode at low engine rpms while decelerating is unpredictable, and therefore any further shifter input is a guessing game. The best way to handle this is quite simple: don't use M-mode for low-rpm driving. If you plan to let the revs down that far anyways, just put it back in D and save yourself some work and confusion. M-mode is for when you're *really* driving, in which case you'll be keeping the revs in the 2k+ region (at least

), and the car won't interfere or downshift on its own.

What I'd love to see, if someone like UpRev can pull it off, would be an ECU mod that doesn't allow the M-mode to downshift for you, avoiding the confusion.

wstar, have you contacted them. That would be a great mod. I would, but since I don't even have a car yet....

wstar · 04-06-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hey32g

wstar, have you contacted them. That would be a great mod. I would, but since I don't even have a car yet....

Well, they haven't released anything at all yet for the 370Z, and I'm much more interested in engine tuning than playing with the 7AT, so I'm not about to go accidentally suggest something that might delay the release of the tuning software even more. Hopefully they'll get it out the door soon, then we can start asking for random small features like that.

blumango · 03-26-2013, 07:59 AM

I came from an Audi S5 Sportback...I find the pedal shifters on the 370Z really "stiff"...I need to use a lot more force to flick them and I find it hard to downshift 2-3 gears quickly when I need to...I bought this car used, about 3 years old. U reckon they need some lubricating?

wstar · 03-26-2013, 08:25 AM

Hard to say since the force to click is kind of subjective, so probably nobody knows if theirs feels quite like yours even after your description. It shouldn't be hard at all to rapidly double- or triple- click the paddle shifter with your middle finger (assuming a straight steering wheel, hands at 9/3 -ish, and reasonable adult hand strength).

Zythaxus · 03-26-2013, 08:25 AM

The dead hath arisen

04-06-2009, 01:45 PM	#20 (permalink)
JoeyD Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 305 Drives: 09 NISMO 370Z Rep Power: 186	I get the 2-1 clunky downshift too. Forewarning...it gets firmer as time goes on. At almost 10k miles I have learned not to drive casually in M mode, because that downshift could make you chip a tooth. __________________ When was the last time you did 230MPH in something with 4 seats?

04-06-2009, 03:57 PM	#24 (permalink)
JoeyD Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 305 Drives: 09 NISMO 370Z Rep Power: 186	^^I like to think that I can shift a manual very quickly. The auto shifts faster than even my best shifts (albeit not by very much) and does so with flawless consistency. And yeah 10K miles. I drive a lot, and my commute is almost 30 miles each way. I'm trying to move closer to work. Hopefully that will cut my miles by a 2/3rds. __________________ When was the last time you did 230MPH in something with 4 seats? Last edited by JoeyD; 04-06-2009 at 04:00 PM.

04-06-2009, 05:45 PM	#25 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Hmm someone edited what I replied to earlier, my response doesn't even make sense now As far as shifting speed goes, I think it's really good for an auto with paddle shifters. On a straight line, pedal to the floor - I think an experienced 6MT driver can shift faster, because those are the easiest/fastest shifts to make and there's nothing else going on. But for curvy stuff where one would be shifting "carefully" and watching car balance, etc, I think the 7AT will hold its own against a 6MT driver just fine. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-26-2013, 08:25 AM	#29 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Hard to say since the force to click is kind of subjective, so probably nobody knows if theirs feels quite like yours even after your description. It shouldn't be hard at all to rapidly double- or triple- click the paddle shifter with your middle finger (assuming a straight steering wheel, hands at 9/3 -ish, and reasonable adult hand strength). __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-26-2013, 08:25 AM	#30 (permalink)
Zythaxus Base Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Marietta, GA Posts: 82 Drives: 2010 370z BS 7AT Rep Power: 12	The dead hath arisen __________________ "Vision" 2010 Brilliant silver 370Z Touring/sport Stillen G3 \| Z1 25 Row \| Hotchkis Sways \| Swift Spec R \| 20F/25R

04-06-2009, 01:33 PM	#19 (permalink)
joeyz10 Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: SoCal Posts: 248 Drives: 09 370z AT/ RRSS 08/ Rep Power: 16	Hey Wstar that all makes sense and thanks for your input. Appreciate it. Nice to know that it is not only my car that is doing that jolt thing. I always drive stick so this is something new to me but I will get used to it just like you guys are. I am around 1400 miles now and wlays driving hard......

03-26-2013, 07:59 AM	#28 (permalink)
blumango Base Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Singapore Posts: 75 Drives: 2010 370Z Roadster Rep Power: 12	I came from an Audi S5 Sportback...I find the pedal shifters on the 370Z really "stiff"...I need to use a lot more force to flick them and I find it hard to downshift 2-3 gears quickly when I need to...I bought this car used, about 3 years old. U reckon they need some lubricating?

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